Ba Guan

My wife (Taiwanese) suggested that I visit a Chinese doctor because of some pain I was having in my shoulder and down my arm. I went to see Dr. He Chiropratic in Atlanta. What I thought was a rotator cuff injury, he thought was due more to nerve/bone damage from a past car accident. He tried a few pressure points that were pretty painful on my right side, but not painful at all on the left side. After a little massage/heat therapy, he applied a Ba Guan (suction cup) treatment to several points on my back and shoulder. This left me with some perfectly circular deep purple bruises on my body, but I’m not sure if it really did any good yet. My shoulder hurt worse after leaving the doctor, but that may be due to my new bruises. I go back next week for some X-rays to see if there’s any spinal damage or degeneration causing the pain.

Anyone else have experience with Ba Guan, and did it help?

Had some in conjunction with herbal treatment and acupuncture (from a mainland-trained doctor in the UK). The whole treatment regime helped. Of course you should get everything checked out physically, including x-rays if needed, first.

Total rubbish. It sounds very much like what I have, a kind of degenerative bone “disease.” I emphasis the word disease because it is more a condition than anything else.
In short, what happens is that a vertabra decays near the edge facing the spinal nerves. In time, the bone regrows, but not exactly in the same shape, causing pressure on the nerves. This in turn is relayed along the neck and arm(s) as pain. Usually it varies from dull “sore neck” sort to very precise as if there is a hot wire inside you running from your neck down one or both arms. If you keep your arms at a certain position, say riding a motorcycle, you may experience numbing in the fingers or hand.
Sucking the flesh will obviously do nothing for this condition.
It is caused by age or former impact or damage, such as a sports injury or fall or accident (car).
If you want, I can look up the exact name of the thing at home. The pain seems to come and go over a span of months. I have had relief for 9 or 10 months at a time and then it creeps back for a couple of months until I medicate it.
I have gone to several hospitals here in Taiwan and only found the right doctor in the senior bone specialist at Macay Hospital.
What you need to do is find a good bone specialist where you live and he will X-ray your upper spine (below the neck). If you want me to private message you the drugs I take (when I need to), I will. If you find relief let me know what drugs you take.
This condition is not reversable; you will have to live with it for the rest of your life. In worst cases, surgery is needed to reduce chronic pain, but I don’t think that is the case with you.
Also, I have lived here over 18 years and I would have to say that no matter how much you love your wife, most of the Chinese remedies for serious problems have only the benefit of the placedo effect. You might as well go back to blood-letting and consulting proportions of the body’s humors (phlegm, blood, yellow bile and black bile).
Get real treatment. You will feel better for it.
Good luck.

Au contraire Wolf.

Actualy I was a western trained nurse with a strong interest in western human biology for a good 10 years before I got interested in Chinese medicine. So interested in fact that I studied it formerly in Australia and China full-time for four years to attain qualififcations that allow patients seeing me to obtain private health insurance refunds. Never was that interested in the practical side, the years iof nursing left me sick of sick people.

I can say that I’ve seen some truly remarkable responses from cupping. The classic is frozen shoulder. Believe me whem I was being taught this I was highly skeptical, until of course I perfomed it the first time on someone and had an instant response. I was truly shocked. This has been repeated many times since by the way, so many that I’m quite blaise about it these days.

The placedo effect is a neat tool of the western medical world to put down alternatives but there is ample quantatative research out there to show that SOME treatments have efficacy far and beyond expected placebo levels.

Though not cupping related, as a student of Chinese medicine I was also working part-time in an operating theatre as a nurse. On one extremely memorable occasion a patient of one of my Chinese medical lecturers came in to have a cervical myoma chopped out. The woman had been taking Chinese herbs for around three months and while there was some effect, my lecturer had suggested the patient seek surgery as things were getting too costly. I was in the theatre for the op but kept my mouth shut. The gyno put up the previous scans showing the size and shape of the growth and was absolutely shocked to see how radically it had been reduced.

I later spoke to my lectiurer and put the gyno in touch with her. They’ve been working together quite merrily to the present day.

Actually my point in raising the latter is that of course, you should never resort to Chinese medicine alone. I used to joke with my patients that if I was run down by a bus and any bastard started wagging accupuncture needles at me I’d have probably killed them on the spot. Put simply wetsern medicine can tell you whether the Chinese medical diagnosis of “blood stasis” is a bruise or a cancer. Chinese medicine cannot.

It does have its use though and usually in the fringe areas where western medicine usually fails, but not always.

HG

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Au contraire Wolf.

The placedo effect is a neat tool of the western medical world to put down alternatives but there is ample quantatative research out there to show that SOME treatments have efficacy far and beyond expected placebo levels.

HG[/quote]

This is interesting ,could you give an example of the “ample evidence”.
ie a double blind ,placebo controlled trial that shows a statistically significant benefit for a chinese medicine treatment versus placebo.

Anecdotal stories of benefits does not really cut it. The placebo effect can be as high (or I believe somtimes higher ) as 30% .Hence the only way of really proving a benefit is a double blind (ie neither the patient nor the doctor knows which product is the active ingredient) placebo controlled trial . I wasnt aware of any such successful trials fro chinese medecine . But I look forward to being corrected on this as it would really change my views which are currently alligned with Wolf.

Not at hand. But when I had access to medline you could punch in that exact request and watch them roll in. Most of the mianland stuff is ignored, though not all of it deservedly. Actually the Japanese have done by far the best research. I’m out of the loop as it were and not currently doing the Chinese medicine thing.

At this point all I can offer is that the placebo effect - and remember that is for all “medical interventions” is as high as 30% as you stated.

HG

Well actually I just tapped that very request into Google and there were plenty to choose from. I’m busy so I

Very interesting. Thanks for the info. I must look into this in more detail.

[quote=“wolf_reinhold”]In time, the bone regrows, but not exactly in the same shape, causing pressure on the nerves. This in turn is relayed along the neck and arm(s) as pain. Usually it varies from dull “sore neck” sort to very precise as if there is a hot wire inside you running from your neck down one or both arms. If you keep your arms at a certain position, say riding a motorcycle, you may experience numbing in the fingers or hand.
Sucking the flesh will obviously do nothing for this condition.
It is caused by age or former impact or damage, such as a sports injury or fall or accident (car). [/quote]

Sounds very much like my condition. My pain comes and goes, usually aggravated by extra work. I’m doing some major work on my house and that’s what brought on the pain again. My job as an engineer keeps me at the computer all the time, so I am sure that does not help things. I still think I have a rotator cuff injury from a weight-lifting incident about 8 years ago. The Chinese doctor dismissed this, but everything I read about RC injuries matches my symptoms.

[quote=“wolf_reinhold”]What you need to do is find a good bone specialist where you live and he will X-ray your upper spine (below the neck). If you want me to private message you the drugs I take (when I need to), I will. If you find relief let me know what drugs you take.
This condition is not reversable; you will have to live with it for the rest of your life. In worst cases, surgery is needed to reduce chronic pain, but I don’t think that is the case with you.[/quote]

I’m getting X-rays this Friday. The Chinese doctor I visited last weekend is a bone specialist, trained in China and the US. I don’t take any drugs for this condition, besides the occasional Ibuprofen or Aspirin. I think I’ll pass on any future Ba Guan treatments - those bruises are ugly!

Rotator cuff injury is very commonly misdiagnosed by practioners in both western and Chinese medicine. Painful as hell and the ortho treatments brutal. Cupping is of little use for this problem, though acupuncture might help depending on the cause, ie, reducing inflammation (I note you use Ibobrufen - be sure to take it with food or it will put a hole in your stomach).

Good luck on the x-ray. An MRI might actually be a better option. At least then they can see more of the tissue.

HG

[quote=“Scuba”]This is interesting ,could you give an example of the “ample evidence”.
ie a double blind ,placebo controlled trial that shows a statistically significant benefit for a Chinese medicine treatment versus placebo.[/quote]
Of course double blind tests are the way to go. Nobody’s arguing with you there. If you are serious about looking into this then I suggest you look for the research on chronic skin problems such as excema treated under a regime of Chinese herbs. The results have been particularly significant with that.

Huang Guang Chen makes an excellent point. Isolation, testing and studying particular active ingredients is in itself not research into Chinese medicine, beneficial though it may be. A herbal doctor will prescribe a blend of maybe six herbs which are designed to work together. That’s one of the key plus points made about TCM; that when used properly it doesn’t have the side effects that are often found in western medicine, because the latter uses isolated ingredients in high-strength doses.

In general, it’s said that western medicine is often most effective for acute diseases and TCM for chronic ones.

It puzzles some people to know that I believe that some uses of TCM can be very effective, but that I also believe in scientific method and testing. Actually it is not as contradictory as it seems. The foundations of TCM are that most fundamental of scientific methods; trial and error or experiment and observation. The sticking point comes when scientific theories are not adequate to explain observations. This, however, would seem to indicate a deficency in the theory rather than anything else.

I know enough western-trained doctors who are supportive of TCM and a few other reputable lines of ‘alternative’ medicine.

Of myself, lest it be assumed that I am talking out of my bottom, I know some little things about clinical research and statistical analysis methods and in particular meta-analysis, the fairly recently developed methodology for combining findings from a number of clinical studies.

I have personally observed some marked successes of TCM and some less dramatic ones as well as situations where it was not certain whether it had any effect at all.

Still, it seems that the anti- brigade are as fervent and dogmatic as some of the more naive supporters of TCM. It would be pointless to try to persuade such people that TCM can be effective, as they equate ‘belief’ in TCM with belief in one of the more way-out new religious movements (‘cults’).

Finally, it’s not an either/or situation. TCM and western medicine are often used successfully in combination, for example in cancer treatment where something like chemotherapy can zap the cancer cells, and TCM can help the body regain strength and balance.

This placebo effect has worked a couple times for me, once with acupuncture for a sprained ankle and another time with ba guan/herbal medicine for chronic chest pain after a motorcycle accident. I’m not saying it works all the time for everything, but it appeared to work for me in those two situations. Of course, the pain might have gone away on its own without “treatment.”

Blinded trials are difficult with some forms of traditional Chinese medicine, because it’s hard not to let someone know, for example, that they’re being given enormous hickeys or having needles stuck in them. I think some studies address this by poking you with needles but not puncturing the skin.

But hey, here’s the next-best thing: a randomized, controlled trial of moxibustion for correction of breech presentation:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer … t=Abstract

Go to PubMed and do a search for “acupuncture” and randomized trial, and you’ll get a bunch of hits–even a few in respected journals.

Ohh, here’s one that shows that needling is important for chronic shoulder pain relief in athletes.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer … t=Abstract

If that’s true, you could just get married…

Jeff.

Funny you should bring up that first reference. Of course I can’t prove it . . . but I gave moxa to my wife on bladder 67 (zhiyin) - the point refered to in the first reference - for a breech presentation of our son over a few days. She could feel some movement but things were’nt happening fast enough for me so I went in with a pin. Things started rolling a tad too quickly. The lad was born that very night, three weeks early and not breech I hasten to add. Hell of a labour though. We were, or should I say she was, opting for the “natural birth” experience which meant no pain stoppers. We both agreed, sadly after the fact, to hell with that. Bit like getting your a root canal performed “naturaly” here in Taiwan.

Joesax. Nice points raised in your post. As you point out there are the believers and the non-believvers and both point to a battery of evidence to stay there arguments. Interesting stuff tends to come from the medical acupuncturists, dctors that have bothered to do the hard yards. I refer to the hard yards to differentiate between the quacks in Australia that obtain the right to include acupuncture after a weekend on the Gold Coast where they get a chart, a bunch of needles and a recipe book for points for certain maladies. Its basically a tax dodge and an attempt by the Australian Medical Assoc. to get alternative medicine out of the hands of non western medical practitioners. I think these bastards have done more disservice to acupuncture than anybody else. I’m sure the same exists in all countries. Though possibly not here or China.

HG

HG

I’m not quite sure how you’re using that term ‘medical acupuncturists’, so I think it’s worth making the distinction between western and traditional Chinese acupuncture. Western acupuncture takes a symptomatic approach; on a very crude level that would be like saying ‘this person has a headache, so let’s stick a needle in point A’. This is very valid in its own way but needs to be distinguished from the TCM approach which is holistic and goes for complete energetic diagnosis first and would make distinctions between different kinds and causes of headaches. The TCM approach is more profound and capable of effecting more long-term healing and solution of problems, but of course is much more open to quackery. That’s a good reason for having certification bodies for TCM as well.

There are different traditions of TCM acupuncture as well; I have personally experienced a ‘five elements’ style of acupuncture as well as a more orthodox style. The five elements guy had only been qualified for about two years. While I think that highly experienced practitioners of this technique may be very effective, I think it takes a long while to develop skill.
I got more benefit from my more orthodoxly-trained doctor from the mainland. Funnily enough, while what she practised was definitely TCM, in some cases it seemed fairly ‘symptomatic’ in its application. Anyway, she had a specially imported infrared deep heat lamp that was lovely and I often drifted off to sleep under it, looking for all the world like a contented hedgehog.

Well, in the UK there are several reputable certifying bodies for both western and TCM acupuncture. To obtain certification from any of these one must study for a long time and be examined on one’s knowledge. There may be a few quack bodies as well but I think they may be more easily recognised and rejected by prospective patients than in some other countries.

‘Medical acupuncturists’ are western trained doctors who employ Chinese medical theory. I used the word interesting in the sense that the research they do tends to pack more wallop. These guys are believers in TCM theory (as I said before, it should be CM because there’s nothing traditional about it) and are much keener to prove to their peers that they aren’t quacks. I trained in the pure TCM model, herbs, acupuncture and massage and these guys are generally hostile to people lke me. In fact teh father of a very good friend of mine falls into the medical acupuncturist model and I’m almost glad I didn’t meet him based on the harranguing he gave a colleague.

My reference to the two days on the Gold Coast types, advocated by the Australia Medical Assoc., are what you’re referring to with the “headache? stick pin a in point b.” This farqhars have done more damage than any other to discredit acupuncture. In Australia you could/can (looks like the game’s nearly up) get “free” national health treatment from these bastards as opposed to seeing the likes of myself and paying first and then claiming off a health fund later. These guys, as doctors, are exmpt from the usual registration bodies, which are alot about getting approval for returns from insurance funds in addition to mainatining standards. Basically they can charge under the NHS or medicare as its called in Australia. As I said, these courses are psuhed by the AMA essentially are aimed at squeezing out opposition. The AMA are perhaps the last big union and one that has yet to be successfuly cracked in any country.

I actually belong to the latter category. Qualified from an appropriate school and elligible to join a governing body. Exactly the same as the UK except in Australia it has to be done on a state by state basis with some states, Victoria for example, having the most rigorous criteria. I do/did meet the criteria for all of them. As I haven’t practiced for awhile I’d have to sit a test and do a year-long refresher (I think, not having looked too deeply into it).

As for schools, I was never fond of the five eleents myself, studied it but found it way too formulaic. Mind you there were some good practitioners of this school around Sydney when I studied there. I’m a good old fashioned “earth” school graduate and when I dabble that’s my bent. This tends to be the preferred method, both here and in China among hospital/university trained professionals. I’ll add that I found the four years of Chinese medicine study far more difficult than the four year Chinese studies degree I did afterwards, which of course included learning Chinese.

Sounds like you know your stuff Joe Sax. Don’t be offended if I offer Paul Unschuld’s Chinese Medicine A History of Ideas as a good read and discover you’ve read it!

I found Unschuld a great inspiration and hoped to emmulate him by going into academia and pursuing the history of Chinese medicine. Sadly I ran out of steam and now after all these years of study I’m in need of a buck.

HG