Bad teachers are good teachers. Yes?

Sometimes the best thing for say an intermediate or advanced level EFL student is to find a teacher who doesn’t know how to teach. That way they get an interaction with a foreigner that would be more similar to a foreigner you might actually meet in a foreign country; not a teacher that has been teaching here for years and speaks slowly and clearly.

When a lot of Taiwanese go abroad they are surprised that they can understand their foreign English teacher in Taiwan but cannot understand anything the man in the Newcastle Mc Donald’s has to say.

Perhaps an English course with the worst teachers would be very useful. Those teachers that mumble in class and use idioms all the time. Perhaps importing some Mc Donald’s workers from the States or England would be a good way to give Taiwanese students experience in real everyday English.

[quote=“fenlander”]Sometimes the best thing for say an intermediate or advanced level EFL student is to find a teacher who doesn’t know how to teach. That way they get an interaction with a foreigner that would be more similar to a foreigner you might actually meet in a foreign country; not a teacher that has been teaching here for years and speaks slowly and clearly.

When a lot of Taiwanese go abroad they are surprised that they can understand their foreign English teacher in Taiwan but cannot understand anything the man in the Newcastle Mc Donald’s has to say.

Perhaps an English course with the worst teachers would be very useful. Those teachers that mumble in class and use idioms all the time. Perhaps importing some Mc Donald’s workers from the States or England would be a good way to give Taiwanese students experience in real everyday English.[/quote]Interesting idea. I’m not rejecting it outright, but I’d say that a decent teacher should be able to vary the level and clarity of the language they use to suit the level of the students. One of the tutors on my TEFL course used to get complaints from her EFL students at the start of every term, because she spoke fairly rapidly. The students seemed to get used to her way of speaking quite soon, though. They were mostly Cambridge FCE candidates, so if they hadn’t heard that kind of natural speech before, it was about time they did.

Why? There are loads here already. :wink:

Traitor! Turncoat! You used to slave away at the ESL coalface, but now that you’ve escaped to the high class world of editing, you mock your former comrades.

Traitor! Turncoat! You used to slave away at the ESL coalface, but now that you’ve escaped to the high class world of editing, you mock your former comrades.[/quote]
You want fries with that? I’ve never mined the ESL seam, though I’ve played one on TV. Never worked in a burger joint, either – it was enchiladas and shrimp veracruz I flipped before coming here.
I really DO know an ESL teacher who worked in MacDonald’s though. She’s smaller, prettier and MUCH smarter than either of us, too.

Traitor! Turncoat! You used to slave away at the ESL coalface, but now that you’ve escaped to the high class world of editing, you mock your former comrades.[/quote]

Today at work a teacher punished a student by having the student say ‘I am stupid’ over and over again. Then the teacher broke his pencil knowing that the student would then get in trouble with his Chinese teacher and his parents. He bragged about this in the teacher’s office.
I side with Sandman on this one. :raspberry:

Lotta wrote: [quote]I side with Sandman on this one. Raspberry[/quote]
Side with? Christ, whose side am I on? I was just funnin’ with the Sandman. I’ll have a pint of whatever you’re drinking.

[quote=“joesax”][quote=“fenlander”]Sometimes the best thing for say an intermediate or advanced level EFL student is to find a teacher who doesn’t know how to teach. That way they get an interaction with a foreigner that would be more similar to a foreigner you might actually meet in a foreign country; not a teacher that has been teaching here for years and speaks slowly and clearly.

When a lot of Taiwanese go abroad they are surprised that they can understand their foreign English teacher in Taiwan but cannot understand anything the man in the Newcastle Mc Donald’s has to say.

Perhaps an English course with the worst teachers would be very useful. Those teachers that mumble in class and use idioms all the time. Perhaps importing some Mc Donald’s workers from the States or England would be a good way to give Taiwanese students experience in real everyday English.[/quote]Interesting idea. I’m not rejecting it outright, but I’d say that a decent teacher should be able to vary the level and clarity of the language they use to suit the level of the students. One of the tutors on my TEFL course used to get complaints from her EFL students at the start of every term, because she spoke fairly rapidly. The students seemed to get used to her way of speaking quite soon, though. They were mostly Cambridge FCE candidates, so if they hadn’t heard that kind of natural speech before, it was about time they did.[/quote]

I agree that for a basic level of English language study the teacher should speak clearly and slowly. Otherwise it is like double dutch to the students and they don’t learn anything. However at the higher levels they should be exposed to teachers that speak rapidly and unclearly. Students often think that their English level is good when they are only exposed to a teacher that speaks slowly. However when faced with a natural rapid speaking pace they are often totally perplexed. So I agree with what you say that all good teachers should be able to change their speed and style and teach according to the level of the student. Sometimes I think it would be best for high level students to have untrained teachers who talk as a natural speaker does. People that don’t speak like “howwwwwwwwwww areeeeeeee youuuuuu”? “IIIIIIIIII ammmmmmmmm fineeeeeeeee thank youuuuuuuuu anddddddddddd youuuuuuuuu”?

[quote=“fenlander”]So I agree with what you say that all good teachers should be able to change their speed and style and teach according to the level of the student. Sometimes I think it would be best for high level students to have untrained teachers who talk as a natural speaker does. People that don’t speak like “howwwwwwwwwww areeeeeeee youuuuuu”? “IIIIIIIIII ammmmmmmmm fineeeeeeeee thank youuuuuuuuu anddddddddddd youuuuuuuuu”?[/quote]I think you can be an experienced teacher and still speak at a normal rate! That’s really what I meant: varying the speed and style includes being able to speak in such a way that challenges students and forces them to develop their abilities.

But you make a good point. When one has some experience as a language teacher it is easy to slip into a mode of speech which ensures total comprehension, when what more advanced students may need at times is input which is only partially comprehensible. Unnecessarily simplified speech is something to be aware of and guard against.

[quote=“joesax”][quote=“fenlander”]So I agree with what you say that all good teachers should be able to change their speed and style and teach according to the level of the student. Sometimes I think it would be best for high level students to have untrained teachers who talk as a natural speaker does. People that don’t speak like “howwwwwwwwwww areeeeeeee youuuuuu”? “IIIIIIIIII ammmmmmmmm fineeeeeeeee thank youuuuuuuuu anddddddddddd youuuuuuuuu”?[/quote]I think you can be an experienced teacher and still speak at a normal rate! That’s really what I meant: varying the speed and style includes being able to speak in such a way that challenges students and forces them to develop their abilities.

But you make a good point. When one has some experience as a language teacher it is sometimes easy to slip into a mode of speech which ensures total comprehension, when what more advanced students may need at times is input which is only partially comprehensible. Unnecessarily simplified speech is something to be aware of and guard against.[/quote]

That’s what those CDs and tapes that come with the books are for. The actors on most of those speak faster and more incomprehensibly than I do to the students. I often have to play the tapes/CDs several times for the students to grasp everything they’re saying. Either that are just look at the script and enunciate it clearly myself.

[quote=“Quentin”]That’s what those CDs and tapes that come with the books are for. The actors on most of those speak faster and more incomprehensibly than I do to the students. I often have to play the tapes/CDs several times for the students to grasp everything they’re saying. Either that are just look at the script and enunciate it clearly myself.[/quote]Right. I also find that. I used to use Jack C Richards’s “Tactics for Listening” as the main book for one class. But the students did find the listening quite a challenge at times.

Still, audio materials and the tasks associated with them are often quite artificial. Students need to be able to understand what they hear in the context of real communication such as when discussing stuff with the teacher. So I don’t think that teachers should rely on audio materials as the sole source of “partially-comprehensible input”.

I’m a bit divided on this issue. But can’t a student of english in Taiwan listen to the speech and inflection of a native speaker by buying a DVD of Friends/CSI/Blackadder/whatever, or watching HBO? (especially if there’s a downloadable transcript, or English subtitles encoded on the DVD.) Once the student finds he/she can comprehend everything in such a program without the subtitles, they should at least have a good chance at comprehending the gentleman in the Newcastle McDonalds.

[quote=“lurkky”]I’m a bit divided on this issue. But can’t a student of english in Taiwan listen to the speech and inflection of a native speaker by buying a DVD of Friends/CSI/Blackadder/whatever, or watching HBO? (especially if there’s a downloadable transcript, or English subtitles encoded on the DVD.)[/quote]I’ve met a few people here who have attained a reasonable intermediate level (by which I mean a true intermediate level; maybe around Cambridge FCE level) mainly through the kind of thing you describe.

I read you as saying is that it isn’t always the main part of a teacher’s job to provide input to relatively advanced students. I agree. I think that as students progress, they need to be getting more of their language practice independently. The teacher’s role becomes more one of a facilitator and advisor. Part of that involves teaching students about study skills and about using external sources of input effectively.

[quote=“lurkky”]Once the student finds he/she can comprehend everything in such a program without the subtitles, they should at least have a good chance at comprehending the gentleman in the Newcastle McDonalds.[/quote]The advanced classes can watch Rab C Nesbitt DVDs. If they can comprehend those they’ll be doing better than many English people!

I’m confused by this whole thread. Isn’t a big part of our job providing comprehensible input - English slightly above the students’ level? How can being a “good ESL teacher” not include teaching students to understand fast, sloppy, colloquial English?

Actually I tend to speak at full pace even with beginner students, for general classroom communication. They have no idea what the hell I’m saying for a couple of weeks, and then something clicks and their comprehension rockets up above students of the “Hooowwww arreee yoouuuu” guys.

I strongly suspect that “understanding fast English” and “understanding slow English” are totally different skills.

I agree with Brendon. We do students a disservice by dumbing down English too much. I have heard people speak English with locals in a very simplified (and often chinglisized…hey! a new word!) manner and had to fight with myself to keep from cringing visibly.

“Can…I…give…you…this…one…or…do…you…want…that…one, okay?” (imagine the accompanying overdone body motions). This was something uttered to the Chinese staff at my school, by one teacher who was notorious for oversimplifying their English. Interestingly enough, English was rarely heard spoken by the students in this person’s classroom and when it was, it was very chinglisized (or chinglisised for our British speakers here :wink: ).

I usually have a normal speed of talking, although when I get nervous, I go much faster, but I don’t make a huge difference in speed for my upper-level students (kids who have been studying in an English environment for at least 5 years) because they’ve probably been through at least 10 different accents in the time they’ve been learning the language so their listening skills are pretty good.

In some ways, the revolving door system that many English teachers adopt in Taiwan is good since most teachers here float from school to school, leaving students who have learned to get used to their accents in the time they teach them. It’s kinda like pollination!

Side with? Christ, whose side am I on? I was just funnin’ with the Sandman. I’ll have a pint of whatever you’re drinking.[/quote]

Of course I work wrestling with - er I mean teaching kids. There are foreigners here I wouldn’t want anyhere near my kids.
Alas, you guys are talking about adults here. I think good teachers know that they should talk at normal speeds to intermediate and advanced students. However students should make it known to the teacher that they want them to speak faster :s .
However some of my students have told me that I am speaking slowly in my normal voice. I tell them that I speak this way when explaining a difficult grammar concept. I would speak this way to native speakers if I were explaining a difficult math concept because I want to be clear. :stuck_out_tongue:
Bad teachers for adults?? If that’s what the students want, more power to them? Bad teachers for children? NO!

I’m drinking Guiness Extra Stout. I’ll have a hit of whatever you’re smoking. :beatnik:

I’m in an interesting situation. I have my students for English class, then I’m also with them for a good portion of the rest of their day. So they get more than just the “slow English” Matt. They get me at lunch time, towards the end of the day, etc. So they have the classroom part which is at one pace…then the “me” part which is usually in my normal pace. They really are far ahead of those students who only have the English class and no foreigner around all the time. (The other classes, I still have the constant:

“Hello”
“Hello”
“How are you?”
“How are you?”

Conversations on a regular basis. My class will also understand when I ask them to do something. I think that it is partially being around me all the time and partially the fact that they hear me speak in both “normal” speed and “teaching” speed.

I have not made my mind up on this yet. Great points about the CD’s and listening to TV and radio shows. Some foreign teachers seem to ignore those extra tools and never use them. Or use them too much as a sub for not teaching.

Lets say your job was as a teacher evaluator. Would you ask a teacher to slow down their speech, if the students were all complaining that he/she was speaking too quickly ?

I guess that answer we have established is that it depends on the level of the class. Interesting topic. I have been thinking about it for a long time.

Interestingly most Chinese high school English teachers speak quickly and use a high level of English in the classroom. However most high school students in Taiwan tend to have a poor listening ability. Many seem to be totally defeated by even the basic listening GEPT test; but can read well!

How slow is too slow? In my opinion, the kind of exaggeratedly slow speech you can hear on popular English teaching TV shows is always too slow.

But in general, there’s very good theoretical and practical justification for using some kinds of simplified speech with beginner level students. This can include changing the rate of speech as well as increased repetition of key content words, and perhaps a reduction in the use of pronouns, as well as contextual cues such as gesture, pictures, and so on.

Brendon talked about comprehensible input, which may actually be on the borderline of comprehensibility. I think this is what Krashen meant by “i+1” (IIRC it’s actually i+ something else now, to reflect the fact that teachers can’t grade their speech exactly to the precise level of every student, and that instead they need to provide students with “roughly graded input”).

But there’s a big danger in being too incomprehensible, and an even bigger danger that students and teachers alike may believe that the students understand something, when in fact they’ve misunderstood it. That’s where decent comprehension checking comes in, which of course is a skill that is taught in language teacher training programs.

So overall I still think that experienced language teachers are much more efficient than inexperienced or untrained teachers (though of course students may find such things as language exchanges useful too). Yes, teachers need to make sure they’re providing an appropriate level of input for students, a level that is sometimes just above their current comprehension levels. But this is still something that needs to be judged carefully, and IMO experience is the only thing that enables teachers to do this.

I can’t argue with any of that. I would point out that when I said “for general classroom communication”, I meant stuff that isn’t, say, explanations of difficult grammar, or activity setup. I do slow down for things they have to understand.

For the rest - and I tend to talk a lot of random nonsense in class - I try to vary my level up and down so that it’s useful (“comprehensible”?) to as many students as possible. In reality of course, some students have already figured out they don’t need to pay attention to my rambling and so get no value from it, but that’s a different topic.