Bali Bombing: Foreigners are Terrorist Targets

You don’t even know what you said. You have the brain of a Zen buddhist. All we can hear is the sound of one cell snapping.

my apologies and thanks for pointing that out to me lump, I take anything you say about me as a complement as your retorts are full of nothing substantial. I will take a leaf out of your book and throw some abuse back at you. We all make mistakes after all, I was so hurried replying, hence the mistake I made, I wrote so much I lost track, but you don’t seem to find anything else wrong in my post do you? Do you actually understand any of it? At least with Flipper he is actually stressing his opinion, with your opinions you sound like you should be boozing in a pub with all the other good sports talking about breasts and boozing. Maybe you should stick to the tabloids with the big photos and showbiz news and perhaps talk about something else that is equal to your level of comprehension like playing with a Yo-Yo. This stuff is way over your head.
But you still don’t seem to have anything interesting to say do you. Stick to CNN and bubble gum, you are narrow minded and really quite boring…

Cake hang in there. No need to resort to sledging, you’re up on points!

HG

this is funny. no country in the world is capable of doing anything on their own without us help. turks killing kurds? oh, they’re a us ally! they get us aid! therefore the us is directly responsible for any deaths they caused! and the khmer rouge were only driven to mass murder because the evil americans made them do it. please, cake, is there anything in the world that is not the fault of america? funny thing is that most of the world was also allied with many of these same countries at one point or another. why you could pin the khmer rogue genocide on the us and not on china is questionable. the khmer rouge genocide occured right after they toppled the us-backed regime of lon nol. most of the people who most directly allied with the us during the war(the hmong) were targeted in the genocide and many moved and settled in minnesota.

the armenian massacre occured in 1915, but i love how you subtly tie it to the us by using the “turkey is now an ally” card. smooth. real smooth. great segue into 1990’s turkey that leaves the casual reader with the impression that the us was somehow involved in 1915, as well. instead of labelling turkey as a genocidal country, the us gets the blame. because we all know the turks can’t do diddly squat by themselves without us help and guidance, right?

i love your logic, cake. keep at it!! so far you’ve made the us responsible for what percentage of government-sponsored murders this century? 20%? 30%? come on, a little more work and you could approach 50% easy. i mean, get the holocaust, stalin, and mao in there and you’re most of the way there. don’t forget somolia, which was the fault of the us due to inaction, no doubt. i’m sure amnesty international has already laid the blame for somolia on the us somewhere or other. they’re very good about that kind of stuff.

oh, i don’t understand this part:

[quote]
Chomsky is a liberal - first I have heard, he is a self-confessed anarchist. [/quote]

if you don’t know that chomsky is considered pretty far out there on the left wing, than you either know very little about chomsky(and how he is received in the rest of the world) or you are very delusional.

you think cake loses points for this link?

rense.com/general32/next.htm

some gems from the link for those who didn’t bother to click on it:

"While European Jews were in mortal danger, Zionist leaders in America deliberately provoked and enraged Hitler. They began in 1933 by initiating a worldwide boycott of Nazi goods. Dieter von Wissliczeny, Adolph Eichmann’s lieutenant, told Rabbi Weissmandl that in 1941 Hitler flew into a rage when Rabbi Stephen Wise, in the name of the entire Jewish people, “declared war on Germany”. Hitler fell on the floor, bit the carpet and vowed: “Now I’ll destroy them. Now I’ll destroy them.”

classic! blame american jews for the holocaust!!! i mean, anyone boycotting nazi goods in the us during that time must have been jews with ulterior motives, right? that rabbi guy should have just shut up. hitler wouldn’t have been so mad and stuff and would have been nice to the jews instead of carrying out systematic unimaginable slaughter against them.

[b]"In 1891, Cecil Rhodes started a secret society called the “Round Table” dedicated to world hegemony for the shareholders of Bank of England and their allies. These priggish aristocrats, including the Rothschilds, realized they must control the world to safeguard their monopoly on money creation) as well as global resources. The same folks control the U.S. Federal Reserve and other major central banks.

The Round Table group planned three world wars to degrade, demoralize and destroy mankind, rendering it defenceless. The Third World War, now beginning, pits the Zionists against the Muslims. "[/b]

awesome, you get the jews and the americans in the same blow! the jews planned the 2 world wars! well shiver me timbers! evil british bankers…

"What I have been calling “compulsory suicide” is satanic “culling.” The constant reference by Zionist and other leaders to “blood sacrifice” refers to the practice of human sacrifice. Apparently energy is released when people are slaughtered. Recently U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage said the Hezbollah owes the U.S. a “blood debt.”) "

ooohhh. where’s mulder when you need him? i always knew armitage was in a satanic cult.

"In conclusion, a satanic cult governs the world. These people hate God and hate mankind. They want to destroy it. They believe the end justifies the means and are ruthless. They use the Jews, and everyone else, as cannon fodder. We are “children of the matrix,” duped, distracted, stunted and sacrificed. Without the vision provided by God, we are lambs being led to slaughter. "

satanists are meanies!

is it ok if i post some links to kkk and neo nazi sites on here with the disclaimer that i find them interesting as well?

Flipper the rense.com/general32/next.htm
was done by Henry Makow who is a Jew and American.

I am an atheist so there is no way I can take the word satan seriously. But there were things that happened during WW2 that the mainstream will never disclose, such as Prescott Bush (Dubya’s grandaddy) selling arms to the Nazi’s. tarpley.net/bushb.htm

I haven’t made the US responsible for any percentage. I have found that with your replies you seem to be trying to put words into my mouth. Did I say the evil americans made the Pol Pot do anything? I said they supported and funded. The US have a history of supporting one regime until it is in their interests not to (classic examples being Saddam and JFK).

The sad thing is you try to paint a pretty picture that the US is a utopia with clean hands. Why can’t you admit that your government has committed murder for their own interests. I am British I can admit our government has dropped depleted uranium on Iraq and has resulted in deformed babies and countless deaths. I can admit that churchill dropped bombs on Dresden in WW2 for one purpose to murder hundreds of thousands of people. I can admit that in Northern Ireland the UK had a shoot to kill policy, I could go on and on.
Why is it so hard for you? Are you living in complete denial. Do you have no regard for any murder committed by your government? Is life so cheap for you? Or are Cambodians, Kurds, Afghans, etc in your eyes, unpeople? Do you actually believe the fantasy that wars are fought for peace?

Chomsky was asked what his political persuasion is and he said Anarchist. I could find the quote but it could take a couple of hours and I am not prepared to waste my time as you won’t believe it anyway. If chomsky said that, it’s good enough for me.

If you want to put up KKK and Neo Nazi stuff up that is your choice.
I can assure I won’t be interested as I find their views quite mundane and antiquated, but I don’t think they should be banned from expressing an opinion even though I don’t agree with their views. If you ban things you are advocating a Fascist or Communist way of thinking or any other extremity for that matter.

But not that Indonesian terrorists murdered 200 Westerners in Bali. You are as balanced as a fat man eating pie on a tightrope.

When there is proof that Indonesian terrorists murdered 200 people in Bali, when there is unquestionable evidence I will admit that they did it, but there is no proof that they did, just like there is no proof Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11.
And don’t go posting CNN, etc misinformation (or should I say bullshit) that just because police or government say it is true that it is. How anyone could believe Mohammed Atta’s passport was found outside the rubble of the WTC is beyond me.
Personally I don’t think we will ever get the full picture as to who caused these atrocities.
I assume Lump you are from Austrailia, you should check out the Australian journalist John Pilger:
johnpilger.com
I just finished a great book of his about Australia called ‘A secret Country’. The CIA supported coup in the 1970s was fascinating reading.

Of course you like Pilger - he’s just Chomsky with bad hair. No evidence of Indonesian terrorists… OK, right. I’ve been brainwashed again.

Beam me up Scooby-doo… how’s life on Alpha Centauri?

Piger actually states facts. That is it facts, he uses facts, that is why I admire such people.
There is no way I can take serious the Indonesian government when it arrests someone and then accuses then of something.
In the west there is a long history of miscarriages of justice. So what would make Indonesia any different?
The US uses torture in Cuba with innocent prisoners so imagine what goes on in Indonesia.
No one has been charged for the bali bomb attack if there was enough evidence, surely there would be someone charged.
Yes there are suspects, but they could round up any Islamic nutter and claim he is guilty and if they have no evidence and with foreign pressure they could resort to doing just that. What is the price to pay for a few Islamic nutters being executed if it means your tourist industy gets back on track.

Facts by themselves mean nothing. What makes Pilger special is the half-baked tutti-frutti Honk! Honk! rhetoric in which he dresses the facts.

As in…?

Examples or just more mud slinging?

Lump, you’re response is the usual one trotted out to Pilger (and Chomsky) by conservatives but please furnish an example of where he’s either blurred or misrepresented facts. Sorry but comments about his hair and whatever tutti fruitti is meant to mean aren’t in any way constructive.

HG

His “expose” on Camp X-Ray liberally used rhetoric like “human rights outrage”. He muffed the facts on “barbaric conditions.” He ignored his sources’ agenda. Tutti-frutti Honk! Honk! Numjubberlycarpico…

As fair-minded as a cobra.

cake, did you read my posts at all? NOWHERE in my posts on this thread have i been defending the us. i have spent my time trying to point out how silly your arugments are. did the us do some terrible shit in southeast asia? of course we did. but are we directly responsible for the khmer rouge genocide?? you think we are. in fact, you think the us is responsible for anything anyone we give aid to does. the fact that you would construe my posts on this thread to be some kneejerk defend-america-we-are-an-uptopia argument shows how slanted your world outlook is. must be the argument you throw out anytime someone disagrees with you, but surprise, it doesn’t apply in this case.

funny you would admit that the us and britan did some bad things. that’s expected. in fact, you revel in listing all the terrible things you think the us is responsible for. the hard part is if someone with your anti-us views can admit that the us has done some GOOD things in the world. admit that the occupation of japan and germany were good. admit that the us helped save europe during ww2. come on, can’t be that hard, can it?

the website you linked is written by a crackpot. the point of the page you linked was that the jews weren’t totally evil, they were being controlled by a cabal of satanists who made them do evil things. hello? the fact that you would surf sites with that kind of jibberish and link them for others to see says something about you. oh, and for the last time, it makes NO DIFFERENCE to me whether a crackpot is jewish or not.

and huang, no condemnation for the crap cake is linking on this thread? i know you agree with a lot of his political views, but don’t tell me you found that “satanic jews” page interesting and informative, as well.

lump, just forget it. i don’t think cake would ever willingly accept evidence if it doesn’t implicate the us in some way. he would rather believe that the us and israel(!!) planted a mini nuke under a parking spot outside a nightclub in indonesia rather than anything as mundane as a terrorist attack in a region simmering with religious tension with an active militant islamic presence. of course his evidence consists of poorly arguely websites written by people who have a terrible grasp of basic physics and not a SINGLE SHREAD of concrete evidence, but hey, let’s not nitpick here.

[quote=“cake”]Piger actually states facts. That is it facts, he uses facts, that is why I admire such people.
There is no way I can take serious the Indonesian government when it arrests someone and then accuses then of something.
In the west there is a long history of miscarriages of justice. So what would make Indonesia any different?
The US uses torture in Cuba with innocent prisoners so imagine what goes on in Indonesia.
No one has been charged for the bali bomb attack if there was enough evidence, surely there would be someone charged.
Yes there are suspects, but they could round up any Islamic nutter and claim he is guilty and if they have no evidence and with foreign pressure they could resort to doing just that. What is the price to pay for a few Islamic nutters being executed if it means your tourist industy gets back on track.[/quote]

funny you follow your “i admire facts” sentence with a list of assumptions and conjecture.

Yes I admire facts and you will not get all the facts with the mainstream media. That is why I admire the work of Pilger, Chomsky etc. With other avenues that you use, there is a guarantee that facts will be withheld. There is a guarantee that we will not get the full picture. That is why it is great that the internet has provided a continuing base (not just newspapers) for alternative news resources such as medialens.org - this is the type of website where I read articles and take seriously

So this is crap according to flipper:
members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm
home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/
johnpilger.com
tarpley.net/bushb.htm

This one from the Mainstream press too!:
abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Daily … 10501.html

jewsnotzionists.org
answering-christianity.com/iraqi_torture.htm

The last link is quite shocking and you regarding it as crap is worrying. Like I said maybe to you they are unpeople, so it doesn’t matter and you never did answer that question.

Yes there are crackpots with websites on the internet and when one reads something that you believe to be idiotic it is entertaining.
But one thing I learnt from Henry Makow from an earlier piece by him was that there are Rabbi’s and Jews who do not want to be associated with Israel - so crackpot or not, I became aware of a movement that I had no idea existed, and in turn so did you.

You think there is no torture in the US concentration Camp in Cuba?
Why are they there, what are they guilty of? Why can’t they be charged in a court of law?
The US over and over again breaks international law, but so do other countries. You see that is what people across the world do not like about the US, they do not like the injustice. Have you ever asked why People hate the US? I don’t hate the US, I don’t like US foreign policy.

Yes the US have done good things, but it is always blighted by the business interests that always follow. That is the sad thing.
The US helped liberate europe just as the russians did, the french resistance, the british, the polish, the Italian resistance etc etc.
Yes the occupation of Japan and Germany made a lot of money for the US and continues to do so. So I suppose it was good for these countries that uncle sam was there to protect them.
But the fact is with anything in life people remember the bad things much more than the good things and unfortunately the US has carried out too many bad things and will continue to do so.

Actually I haven’t met that many people who actually disagree (maybe if I spend more time with americans than that may be the case? I would hope not.) with me and if someone did I wouldn’t use the argument you suggest, as any disagreement wouldn’t get that far and I wouldn’t ever say anything like that, it is too superficial. Most of my friends here are canadian, arabic japanese and european and guess what they all have a negative view of american foreign policy and that is not their fault.

I know the US is no utopia, I know that if a baby is born in Cuba it has more chance of survival than if it was born in the US, I know there is a higher literacy rate in Cuba than in the US, etc etc.
I asked you questions because all you have seemed to do is look for reasons to ridicule me. This has no effect on me by the way. I don’t have an ego problem so you can carry on and on, it won’t work.

You can’t use the ‘Is the US directly responsible line’. If that was the case why are people chasing Kissinger? So is Milosevic directly responsible for the genocide in Bosnia? Again, one rule for one, one rule for another - Milosevic is taken to a war tribunal and Sharon gets away scott-free. Funny how convenient it was that the star witness who was going to testify against sharon was blown to bits in a car bomb.

Regarding the Bali bomb, I have no evidence. I am not investigating. Yes I used an assumption, maybe I will have to stop looking at those Murdoch news items. But at the moment everyone is making assumptions yourself included. I said that the bali thing is like 9/11, I have no idea who was responsible for it and I don’t think we will ever know the full truth, and I have my doubts about the people they have arrested (and that doesn’t mean some Islamic nutter didn’t do it either) but if this was 1963 and Kennedy was just shot and I said oswald was a patsy, you would ridicule me and you know that. Maybe you believe Oswald actually did it I don’t know.
One thing though flipper, I informed you where I read information online, you have yet to do that, please don’t tell me you actually believe all the Murdoch, time warner news?
If you were in Indonesia and you were arrested, would you have faith in the system there? I wouldn’t.

“The news and truth are not the same thing.”
Walter Lippmann, American journalist, 1889-1974

Things are picking up nicely now chaps.

Good links too! Maybe the mod could past them into this links: http://forums.segue.com.tw/viewtopic.php?t=6525&highlight=

HG

I’m curious as to why there’s no mention in the mainstream US news media – at least that I’ve seen – about the current large-scale anti-American demonstrations in South Korea over the acquital by a US military court of two soldiers accused in the traffic deaths of two Korean girls. Apparently some restaurants and hotels are even refusing to serve Americans over the incident so at the very least it’s an inconvenient time for an American to be going there, if not somewhat risky.

I heard this from an acquaintance living in Japan who knew I was scheduled to go to South Korea on a business trip and suggested I wait.

I found coverage of the situation on BBC which reported that an American congressional delegation cancelled a trip to S. Korea over the seriousness of the situation and that George Bush had stepped in with an official apology of some sort.

No coverage on CNN etc. just doesn’t make sense to me in this age of heightened awareness of anti-Americanism around the world.

I’ve been keeping up with it for several days.

news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2& … sia_137614

I don’t think it’s being pushed much in the US media because the Koreans are ALWAYS demonstrating about something.

nowhere in your statement is there a single piece of evidence that points toward torture being used in the us camps in cuba. you seem to have confused due process with torture. i think this is refered to as a “bait and switch”.

please. give it a break. it’s like you just can’t force yourself to say anything good about the us. really, it’s quite sad. you can’t even make a simple statement like “the us involvement in ww2 was good.” you need to sneak your “but it was because of business interests.” you’re so seeped in your own anti-americanism that you MUST throw it out there any chance you get.

wrong. infant mortality rate is higher in cuba than in the us(7.39 versus 6.76 per 1000).

bartleby.com/151/a28.html

huh? what are you going on about? i’m talking about blaming a country for the actions of an ally and you’re rambling about how stupid and hypocritical the international criminal court(which americans detest) is.

how about you use some of the examples i’ve thrown out? cambodia. please explain to me how a chinese/viet cong backed radical communist regime which overthrows a us backed regime and starts a massive genocide can be blamed on the us. please, show me your logic here.

turkey. show me why the us is responsible because turkey abused its kurd minority. so much so that you would count those deaths as terrorist deaths caused by the us.

from the mixed bag of links you’ve put up which included anti-semetic drivel talking about satanists and evil jewish blood sacrifices, your sources seem much less credible and much more biased than anything cnn or fox would put out.

as for me, i get my news from pretty much every major english language media outlet out there. ones that actually have journalists and editors and not just a guy with 20 megs on a geocities site. i read the major american papers and newsites, globe and mail from canada, guardian, independent, bbc, and the times from the uk, sydney morning herald and the age from oz, as well as the big wires(ap and afp). the non-us papers i read for international coverage. many other counties have media which have english versions of their news which is interesting to read when something happens there, but i don’t follow the asahi shimbun(for example) closely unless it’s concerning an event i’m interested in.

yahoo full coverage is a great place to get consolidated news about events from different sources in different countries. some of the sites they link to are even sites which make no pretenses to be unbiased(like the world socialist web site).

the economist is also great for more local stories that don’t really make waves outside of the country it involves. like this week’s stories on nigeria and the phillipines.