There is a significant amount of discontent in the forums resulting in negative comments against men. These often develop into us versus them, women against the men, Decided to start a thread highlighting some issues which disrupt the forums regularly in an effort to bring these out for discussion. Believe the problem is mainly here in D&R where they commonly fester, so I have started the post here, the admins may decide it belongs elsewhere (Open or Feedback).
Hopefully by creating a higher level of awareness from both sides, improvements will result. To me personally, it has often made the experience unpleasant and irritating. Hopefully this will lead to meaningful dialog and enlightenment from both sides. I am going to only list some common issues and not embellish, otherwise this page would be too long. Will add a few pages for discussion. Please participate and add your additional topics and thoughts.
Women’s Issues
Men are insensitive to women in the forum.
Don’t like the forum because it is male dominated
A lot of women will not post or use this forum because of the ….men
A lot of things said in the forum make women uncomfortable (list)
Several things said are unacceptable in an open public forum
Men’s Issues
Women usually start fights with personal attacks, insults, and name calling, “attack the messenger and not the message”.
There are a lot of “hit and runs”. Say something negative against men or male posters but will not debate what you just said. Appears to be an unwillingness to debate at all! .
This is an open forum we (men) want to openly and honestly say what we want. But you do not want us to!
My observation in the months I have attempted to participate (a member longer but not active) the personal attacks are excessive, irritating, and totally disrupt any attempt have a value added discussion. Most of the time initiated by women (first blood).
Personal attacks move the discussion from an intellectual level to an emotional one and are childish. Believe many know that and in fact that is the intended purpose, just derail the subject and what the poster has said.
Most of the time the attacker’s use this in an effort to discredit and belittle those attacked believing they will gain an argumentative advantage (what I say is important and what you say isn’t because you’re a “…personal insult…!)” For many it achieves the purpose of “shutting the other person up” (which I did the first few times they we bestowed). Most of the time they lead to further childish name calling… your…. your……. your…… The other unfortunate result is when bullied, often people fight back, and sometimes resort to the same bullying practices for self-protection, and Fight club ensues.
Just within the last week I have received 3-4 responses starting with “this is probably over your head”…. Sorry, but this just condescending bullshit and it is a personal attack. My last few responses also got nasty when telling them so. It is not much different, certainly less strong, than starting with “well you are likely the dumbest MF on the planet” ….
What is it about “comment on the message and not the messenger” that you do not understand??
Those who do this, please explain why you do it and/or why you think it is acceptable ???
I would like to suggest to the women a different approach in dealing with a topic, or a poster, you don’t like and find offensive. Just tell them you do don’t like it and explain why.
I believe you often feel you must have a negative label to attach (sexist, racist, Neanderthal…) so everyone agrees, “yes those people are really bad”, therefore the poster is bad and whatever he says is bad.
The problem here is you are not going to get, nor believe you are getting, the results you are after. The most common response from the poster is to deny the accusation that they are, and in most cases they are correct… The labeling of “you, or that, is sexist” claim commonly asserted is not true and most of the time would not hold up in fair and open debated. All you have really done is start a debate, which often goes hypothetical and everyone takes sides. The point you were trying to make, gets lost.
I cannot guarantee you will get better results but I will say, if you call me something that I am not just because you did not like what I said, you will get a debate, If you elevate it to name calling, they may come back (I make every effort not to). If you explain to me you didn’t like what I said and why, you have educated me (and other male readers) what bothers you (and likely other women here) and I am now aware of it, so next there is at least a chance that I will not say it, or at least think about if I do.
Disagree, the horses are upset and may do not know why. Somewhere, I heard when there are problems it is better to discuss them than bury them, what is you opinion on that?
People are generally rather swinish all round.
Once is a while there a solid chap, a decent lady, but it is not like there is a contest over which sex is the snarkier.
In the end, does it really matter?
[quote=“TheGingerMan”]People are generally rather swinish all round.
Once is a while there a solid chap, a decent lady, but it is not like there is a contest over which sex is the snarkier.
In the end, does it really matter?[/quote]
Just within the last week heard several women, nearly all that I am aware are women, voice strong discontent with men in the forum. Most men don’t even know they are upset. Believe it would be good to get the issues out in the open to discuss them in an effort to have some common understanding on both sides. Here is an opportunity speak up and tell us what is bothering you and share it. Many likely don’t know,and if you don’t tell them they will never know.
It often does look like a contest. If your side scores a direct hit, get lots of recommends from your team.
Have already received some hinting, do you really need to take this there? Yes absolutely! Anyone who thinks there isn’t a problem here, and a really big one, has not spent any time here (ever). Personally I believe there are a lot of good people in this forum, but until this situations improves, several stay away, both women and men.
How about the men have some attempt at giving examples of what they think women might find sexist? The men here have absolutely no problem going off and doing research on politics or global warming or some such and have NO PROBLEM digging about through peoples words here to make some point. So why all of a sudden is the onus on the women to point out what is being done?
Maybe we should re-word the topic so men can understand. “There is ZERO sexism towards women on this site.” Now the men can go and do their research and comeback and disagree.
[quote=“superking”]
Maybe we should re-word the topic so men can understand. “There is ZERO sexism towards women on this site.” Now the men can go and do their research and comeback and disagree.[/quote]
What a dumb idea! No one is saying that. Plus, I’ve made this point before, but it hasn’t really been acknowledged: it’s intrinsically harder to prove a negative than a positive. For example, to prove that there are no cockroaches in a house. “I don’t see any” “Keep looking!” vs proving they are there, which can be done by finding one.
How charming. I suppose in the real world you say such things to people you don’t know, do you? Shouldn’t you be off trying to work out a female perspective on sexism? You seem peachy keen on learning.
How charming. I suppose in the real world you say such things to people you don’t know, do you? Shouldn’t you be off trying to work out a female perspective on sexism? You seem peachy keen on learning.[/quote]
It was a dumb idea. Eggs is eggs.
And shouldn’t you stop indulging in your nauseating pretense of moral superiority?
And yes I am interested in women’s perspective. But not from condescending guilt trippers. And that goes for the issues of racism and environmentalism as well, FYI
How charming. I suppose in the real world you say such things to people you don’t know, do you? Shouldn’t you be off trying to work out a female perspective on sexism? You seem peachy keen on learning.[/quote]
It was a dumb idea. Eggs is eggs.
And shouldn’t you stop indulging in your nauseating pretense of moral superiority?
And yes I am interested in women’s perspective. But not from condescending guilt trippers. And that goes for the issues of racism and environmentalism as well, FYI[/quote]
How curious you now are to me because you have spent time thinking about me and have labelled me. I have a nauseating pretence of moral superiority? Condescending guilt tripper?
I have nothing to say about you. And I’m not even going to pretend its cos I have better things to think about or do with my time.
[quote=“superking”]How about the men have some attempt at giving examples of what they think women might find sexist? The men here have absolutely no problem going off and doing research on politics or global warming or some such and have NO PROBLEM digging about through peoples words here to make some point. So why all of a sudden is the onus on the women to point out what is being done?
Maybe we should re-word the topic so men can understand. “There is ZERO sexism towards women on this site.” Now the men can go and do their research and comeback and disagree.[/quote]
Somehow I’m thinking women just telling us what they find offensive many bring better results than us just guessing. Think this might be more meaningful than the men arguing with themselves over what bothers women. Just my perspective.
See no need to reword the topic. Yes we can go off into what is or is not sexist here, but only if we can agree on it’s meaning, and we don’t. To many here, sexism equals = anything women don’t like about men, an incorrect usage. But to my previous point, it will be better if we stay away from the -ism and -ist, otherwise we will be having yet another futile effort in semantics.
Women usually start fights with personal attacks, insults, and name calling, “attack the messenger and not the message”. [/quote]
Micahel, could it be that you are speaking about 1 or 2 posters (who happen to be women) and then pinning this behavior on all of female-kind?
Have I done this to you? I may have, and if so, I apologize, sometimes emotions run high and my fingers run faster than my emotional intelligence.
But to pin this behavior on all women, as if it’s a characteristic of ALL women, rather than simply seeing it as an individual’s behavior, is, in itself, a funny sort of sexism, isn’t it?
Please call a mod’s attention to the individuals who are engaging in this kind of behavior. Sometimes it’s hard for them to read everything that’s posted, and I believe most mods will take action on a post that includes personal attacks, insults and name-calling, particularly if you flag it. You can click on the triangle with the exclamation mark on it at the top right side of their post.
[quote]
2) There are a lot of “hit and runs”. Say something negative against men or male posters but will not debate what you just said. Appears to be an unwillingness to debate at all! . [/quote] this is unfortunate and I hope you get more success in the future. I myself enjoy a good debate.
[quote]
3) This is an open forum we (men) want to openly and honestly say what we want. But you do not want us to![/quote]
By “you” I suppose you mean us, we, the collective woman- one evil entity without individual characteristics?
I rather enjoy hearing the perspectives of other people. And I’m a woman. Interesting, that.
