Being a racist or being attracted to physical attributes?

Life Dating & Relationships
1

I was recently called a “sell outs and racist” by one of my eurasian male friends semi-jokingly. I felt really offended but he insisted that what he said make sense.

I told him that I no longer find Asian men attractive because of my experience with Asian men, boyfriend or relative, growing up in a primarily Asian (men) dominated environment. After my long term relationship with my Asian ex ended, I was so traumatized it must’ve left a deep scar. When I met my Caucasian husband, I started to realize how much freedom I had in the relationship, which was completely different from what I have experienced in my previous relationship. This Caucasian man was honest, open-minded, caring, and laid back. He was pretty much the opposite of my ex. Growing up in Taiwan for the first 12 years of my life and living in the U.S. ever since, has me stuck in between the two different cultures. I started to resent a lot of the things that Asian men has in a way, “oppressed” Asian women. My dad’s done it to my mom, my sister’s ex did it to her, my bestfriend’s boyfriend did it to her, and my ex did it to me. Even though this is a generalization to all Asian men, I believe I have every valid reason why I no longer find Asian men attractive to be with. There’s also a Chinese saying along the lines of being bitten by a snake, and one’d be afraid of ropes for the next 10 years, meaning a traumatic experience inflicting so bad of a psychological wound on a person that the person would be afraid of any similiar experiences for a very long time. So, I’d like to state that the reason why I started dating Caucasian men was probably due to cultural openess, how I felt like I wasn’t suffocated because I wasn’t expected to fulfill a certain role, or do a certain things.
On the other hand, when I asked my husband of 3 years why he found me attractive, he told me part of the reason was because he liked the way Asian women look. My husband has preference to dark haired girls as opposed to blondes. He has preference to darker skin as opposed to pale skin. He has preference to smaller body frames as opposed to wider, longer frames. These are all the physical attributes he found attractive and since Asian women are usually the ones who possess these attributes, he found Asian women more attractive. It is not to say that he had only dated Asian women, as I was actually the first Asian woman he’s ever dated, and ended up marrying to. When I talked about this with my eurasian male friend, he basically called my husband and I racists, and me more specifically, a “sell out”. According to him, taking a preference based on the characteristics of a certain race IS the very essence of racism. I have a lot of problems with this statement, because while one can list out his preference for women with bigger boobs without being called a sexist, why is it that having preference of black hair or oval eyes considered racism?

Now you see why I’m offended? I don’t care if random people see us on the street and judge us based on the 3 seconds they’ve seen us, but I do care when I’ve given what I thought were valid reasons why I find someone attractive or not but only to be called a racist and a sell out. When one has a preference to a particular culture or physical attributes possessed by the majority of a certain race, would that be considered racism? Or, would it be simply, just preferences? Please share your thoughts…

2

[quote=“Freecia”]I was recently called a “sell outs and racist” by one of my eurasian male friends semi-jokingly. I felt really offended but he insisted that what he said make sense.

I told him that I no longer find Asian men attractive because of my experience with Asian men, boyfriend or relative, growing up in a primarily Asian (men) dominated environment. After my long term relationship with my Asian ex ended, I was so traumatized it must’ve left a deep scar. When I met my Caucasian husband, I started to realize how much freedom I had in the relationship, which was completely different from what I have experienced in my previous relationship. This Caucasian man was honest, open-minded, caring, and laid back. He was pretty much the opposite of my ex. Growing up in Taiwan for the first 12 years of my life and living in the U.S. ever since, has me stuck in between the two different cultures. I started to resent a lot of the things that Asian men has in a way, “oppressed” Asian women. My dad’s done it to my mom, my sister’s ex did it to her, my bestfriend’s boyfriend did it to her, and my ex did it to me. Even though this is a generalization to all Asian men, I believe I have every valid reason why I no longer find Asian men attractive to be with. There’s also a Chinese saying along the lines of being bitten by a snake, and one’d be afraid of ropes for the next 10 years, meaning a traumatic experience inflicting so bad of a psychological wound on a person that the person would be afraid of any similiar experiences for a very long time. So, I’d like to state that the reason why I started dating Caucasian men was probably due to cultural openess, how I felt like I wasn’t suffocated because I wasn’t expected to fulfill a certain role, or do a certain things.
On the other hand, when I asked my husband of 3 years why he found me attractive, he told me part of the reason was because he liked the way Asian women look. My husband has preference to dark haired girls as opposed to blondes. He has preference to darker skin as opposed to pale skin. He has preference to smaller body frames as opposed to wider, longer frames. These are all the physical attributes he found attractive and since Asian women are usually the ones who possess these attributes, he found Asian women more attractive. It is not to say that he had only dated Asian women, as I was actually the first Asian woman he’s ever dated, and ended up marrying to. When I talked about this with my eurasian male friend, he basically called my husband and I racists, and me more specifically, a “sell out”. According to him, taking a preference based on the characteristics of a certain race IS the very essence of racism. I have a lot of problems with this statement, because while one can list out his preference for women with bigger boobs without being called a sexist, why is it that having preference of black hair or oval eyes considered racism?

Now you see why I’m offended? I don’t care if random people see us on the street and judge us based on the 3 seconds they’ve seen us, but I do care when I’ve given what I thought were valid reasons why I find someone attractive or not but only to be called a racist and a sell out. When one has a preference to a particular culture or physical attributes possessed by the majority of a certain race, would that be considered racism? Or, would it be simply, just preferences? Please share your thoughts…[/quote]

Websters’ is your friend. Technically your Eurasian friend is correct. But tread carefully because God knows what can be construed as racism. Culture is one thing…and it seems that’s where you got screwed. Finding someone desirable due to their looks based on racial profiles can be considered racist…technically.

You, on the other hand, are not…you mentioned that your husband is most excepting of behaviors or situations but he was most excepting of your ‘tighter’ features. Another shallow male? I’d tend to believe it. But you know how folks are these days…Read a dictionary. Touchy subject.

3

I’m white and if I heard a black man saying he preferred black girls to white girls or I heard a Chinese man saying he preferred Chinese girls I wouldn’t consider it racist. Even if they said “I had an X girlfriend once and it put me off X girls for life!”

Isn’t this just down to personal taste? I mean I am finding myself more attracted as I approach middle age to blondes with big tits. Shocking!

4

I’m a guy and I’m very particular about what I find attractive, so I try not to let anyone’s personal preferences bother me. This is even though I have probably been the victim of some kind of dating “racial profiling” in the past. However, it would be hypocritical for me to complain about it, so I try not to, as much as I would love to cry out “unjust!” and whine.

Is it fair to discount someone purely based on their features, some of which may be ethnically inherited? No, but then again it’s not fair that ugly people can’t get dates either. I’d respect someone who is not only a race-blind dater but ALSO attractiveness-blind as well.

One thing I don’t think will change is that although most guys may have certain preferences, when it comes down to it they’ll take any race that is available. Guys with options can pick and choose, but put them in a situation where all the girls are one way and they’ll eventually adapt. I don’t know how it is with women.

5

Freecia,

You are free to do what you want. Date who you want, marry who you want.

I don’t consider you a racist, just someone who has learned what she wants and needs in a relationship and in life.

You don’t say you hate all Asians. If you did, that may make you racist.

You simply state you have learned things in the past, you have applied to a group as a whole. That may be a mistake, but it does not, in my opinion make you a racist.

And what are you “selling out” for. For happiness, for joy, for love? If so, then good for you.

And “ugly” people can’t get dates (to the other thread)?? That is crap. All people are attractive to someone. You who said this are superficial and trite. “Beauty is only skin deep”!! Who are you to say someone is “ugly”. Get rid of all those Elle magazines in your closet and try to see people for who they are, not how they appear to you physically. Get real.

To Freecia, if you are happy, and your husband is happy, then forget everyone else and enjoy your life.

JM

6

As an editor, and I may get flamed for this, but on the net, break your paragraghs up.

We are listening, for sure.

We’re listening…

7

Good post Freecia. I was going to write something on the topic myself and it was touched on briefly on the thread about ‘asian fetish’.

In the same way that you are now attracted to western guys, I believe that I am attracted to asian girls through positive experience during early dating. I believe its completely natural (even genetically inclined) for humans to pick up on distinct features of previous relationships whether positive and negative and affect future relationships.

Whether or not those particular features belong to another race is irrelevant and in my belief is probably the most common reason for so called ‘yellow fever’. My brother on the other hand prefers blonde curly hair and large breasts :smiley: He is much more a typical Aussie in that way…and whilst nobody would blink an eyelid given thats his preference, the mechanisms behind those preferences are exactly the same as those of many guys and girls living here in Taiwan that prefer to date asians (whether they are foreigners or not!)

So in effect, it is not racist at all and you can use my argument to dispell your Eurasian friend’s accusations.

8

Shocking indeed. Your narcissism disgusts me. You should spend less time looking in the mirror.
And another thing: for a man your age, your tits are strictly average-sized. Don’t kid yourself.

9

Well, worst case scenario, if people call you racist because you have a caucasian husband, do you really care?

I can’t remember who told me this, but I was very young and it made a lasting impression on me. The person in question said, “So what if you (as a white person) fall in love with and marry a black women? You can’t control who and what you find attractive and it really has nothing to do with anyone else. The main thing is that you make each other happy. Remember, late at night when the lights are out and you’re lying in bed together, there will only be the two of you. And ultimately that’s all that matters. Fuck what other people think.”

10

The counter argument is of course your average ABC who is basically “white” on the inside, with an Asian gift-wrap.

A “sell out” would be someone that perpetuated that all Asian males were like the ones you had personal contact and had a bad experience with them. Because there are a lot of ABC out there; from the ghetto black emulating “chigger” to the Ivy League emulating “banana yuppie.”

I don’t think dating or marrying out of one’s race needs to be justified in any logical manner, since psychological templates and biological chemistry is such a bore in this aspect of life. However, I would be concerned if an individual tried to justify their relationship based on bad experiences with any particular racial group

Or you can talk about your concerns with other newly coined “1.5 generation” asian immigrants.

11

Thank you for your thoughts, I really appreciate someone, especially from a man’s perspective, to not consider me a “sell out” or a racist.

I take it that my friend feels very bitter about the recent phenomena that Caucasian men seem to “get” all the Asian girls. While I do start to see a lot of that happening especially with the combination of Caucasian men and Asian women as oppose to the rare cases of Asian men and Caucasian women, I really feel that there’s a good reason behind it. I feel that women, especially Asian women, are starting to feel the same way I feel. There are certain expectations that Asian women were to fulfill from their partner’s point of view, and those expectations sometimes aren’t what Asian women want. Having a long history of oppression, I feel that Asian women are finally beginning to realize their Asian men probably won’t change any time soon, and therefore, they look for alternative. Perhaps, some of them just want someone different, and have experiences of something new. Perhaps, the idea of being weaklings who were suppose listen to everything their men said just don’t sit well anymore. Whatever the reason it may be, I feel that Asian women are definetely more daring to persue what they want, rather than what their parents, relatives, siblings, partners tell them they want. Of course, this is not to say that all Asian men are oppressive to their women, but I think it’s hard to yank the deep rooted male surpremacy belief if this was what men ever see and learn since they were young.

The irony with my eurasian friend is that, he’s the very product of such relationship. His dad’s Caucasian, and his mom’s Chinese. Yet, he sits there complaining how Asian women should stop looking only for Caucasian men, as there are many qualified, decent Asian men out there as well. Due to these girls’ supposed “racial profiling”, the Asian men were given bad names and therefore, have tough time finding mates. “To each of their own” was what I had in my mind. Some men may find me attractive, some men find me repulsive. Some men may like my personality, some may find me extremely obnoxious. I don’t understand how it is fair to accuse the Asian girls for looking for who they want, no matter what the reason is? Again, this may be something deep rooted in Asian men’s minds as their women belong ONLY to them. When the women start looking for someone outside of that racial or cultural group, these women are all of a sudden, sell outs.

It is true that I shouldn’t have to justified my relationship to anyone, especially to someone whom I believe to be narrowminded such as my friend. I never had problems with people judging me without knowing me however, at the same time, I feel like there’s severe misundersatnding the general public have for interracial relationships that I feel like I have to defend. Just because, I’m in one, and it’s wonderful.

12

I may be wrong, but isn’t this exacerbated by the fact that Asian society (especially Chinese and Japanese) have been isolated from the rest of the world for so long? The whole concept of The Middle Kingdom (China), The Land of the Gods (Japan), and their dominance within this geographically limited sphere may contribute to this feeling. Especially considering the one sided relationship between Japan and China with the West over the last 150 years.
As I said, I may be wrong, but historically and culturally it may have an impact.

There’s your answer. Sometimes it’s as simple as envy. People who give you a hard time over this aren’t worthy of being your friend and are best avoided.

13

[quote=“Freecia”]
I told him that I no longer find Asian men attractive because of my experience with Asian men, boyfriend or relative, growing up in a primarily Asian (men) dominated environment. After my long term relationship with my Asian ex ended, I was so traumatized it must’ve left a deep scar. When I met my Caucasian husband, I started to realize how much freedom I had in the relationship, which was completely different from what I have experienced in my previous relationship. This Caucasian man was honest, open-minded, caring, and laid back. [/quote]

Freecia, congrats on finding a great husband! You don’t need to justify your relationship to anybody, especially someone who is supposed to be your friend. He sounds like he’s got his own issues that he’s trying to work through, so try not to take what he says personally.

On the other hand, you should realize that there are also plenty of Caucasian men who controlling assholes. They aren’t all honest, open-minded, caring and laid back. You just got one of the nice ones. :slight_smile: And I’m sure there are also plenty of Asian men who have the same characteristics as your husband. I was in a 3-year relationship with a Japanese guy and he didn’t fit the misogynist stereotype of a Japanese man at all. Because I grew up in a predominately white social environment, I never imagined that I would someday fall in love with an Asian guy, but when the right one came crashing into my life, I did.

I applaud any relationship that results out of love, attraction and mutual respect, whether it be a mixed relationship or same-race one. I just personally don’t get the having a preference for one race over another part. There’s way too much variation between people even within the same race that I’d hate to write someone off as a potential partner just because s/he doesn’t have the right hair, eye or skin color.

14

I’ve met quite a few hapa in my life and have quite a few in my extended family. The best adjusted ones in my opinion are those that grow up in a hapa friendly environment, like Hawaii for instance, where there is a large community of hapa.

The worst adjusted are those that grow up in a community that are have a uniformed ethnic make up.

Without knowning more about your friend’s background and your background, I can only guess that perhaps he is projecting onto your future children the problems he faced while growing up. And giving you some pre-emptive suggestions.

I would have to agree with your friend to some extend as the Asian population continues to grow in the West, it is moot to state that Asians oppress women because Asians that are accultured and acclimated in the West subscribe to the same norms as their mainstream counterpart of the same social economic background in the West.

15

Heres a situation I made up that might illustrate this issue:

a woman is presented with 15 men to choose from for a possible relationship. She has in the past had bad experiences with the ‘old style chauvinistic’ Asian man.

5 of these men are ‘old style’ Asian men. (Bad Guys)
5 are modern thinking Asian men. (Good Guys)
5 are westerners. (Mix of good and bad)

When she looks at the 10 Asian men she doesn’t know which will be good or bad, and she wants something different from her past bad experiences.
When she looks at the 5 western men she at least know they will be Different, and obviously since their culture is different theres no way the will be acting the same as the old Asian bf. So their physical looks are signaling a difference, meaning they don’t have to ‘get to know them’ first to know if they are different or not.

It makes sense to me. You could even say something like 1 venomous snake - 1 regular snake - and a parrot. you cant tell the snakes apart and even though the parrot can still bite your finger off at least u know its not poisonous, haha. My analogies are so weird!

Another things is that theres a difference between racist and prejudice. To me, racist is when you hate someone because of their race, prejudice is when you make judgments based on race. Racism is illogical while prejudices are natural due to the confusing nature of culture and learning about others.

16

Isn’t that pretty much the definition of racism?

Racial prejudice IS racism.

17

And I am going to make another generalization here, which I hate doing. But realize it is a generalization.

But it seems that learning social skills just are not that important to a lot of Taiwanese here. I don’t know how to say that without it sounding bad, but let me back up and explain what I mean. I see a lot of the following in this country:

–Time spent in school. What percentage of people go to school, then get stuck in a cram school until 9:00?

–People who don’t have a realistic grasp of how relationships progress. I went out with a girl, just for a couple of dates, who said she would not date someone unless she knew it was the person she was going to marry. Maybe she said it just to break up…who knows? It worked though. When I first got here, I ran into someone online. She said she doesn’t really go out and do anything at all (not in relation to me asking her to do anything…just in a normal “what do you like to do for fun?” type of conversation). She says she needs her time to study. Yet she says she can’t wait until she finds the right guy (do they have personal ads in the back of textbooks these days?)

I don’t know. Does anyone else see what I am saying? I am not trying to say anything bad, so I wonder if I’m holding back too much and not being clear. But does anyone else sense a lack of social skills in a lot of people because of issues like I mentioned above? And I’m not even saying most, just a good percentage…

Matt

18

Racial profiling in one’s love life and how not to promote discrimination.

I remember once in high school sharing a class with an underclassmen who was a blonde Italian American girl. She was very smittened with me and even invited me to her junior prom. I was flattered and had a good time with her. She was one of the first white girls I ever dated and will forever remember the experience before graduating highschool.

I later discovered in college that she later dated a Korean American boy during her college days.

Recounting a true event in my life like this is basically race bias neutral. Any listener who comes across my story will just think wow puppy love.

A sell out is someone would take a real event like as an opportunity imply that there is something negative about their own racial group to all who will listen whether intentional or not.

A parallel spin would be along the lines that Asian women don’t appreciate Asian men. From my experience almost all the asian women I dated required that I asked them out and court them. Only 1 or 2 ABC girls ever asked me out. Compared to white girls I get asked out about half the time. And on rare occassions they even insist on treating me.

Everyone’s love life has ups and downs. To use it as an excuse to promote racial discrimination is kind of sad in my opinion. Just move on and dump the baggage that causes hang ups.

19

She is probably very conservative or a Christain. They taught us that line at Christain retreats when I was 13. The key with this crowd is find out what kind of conservative she is. Is she Christain or Buddist? The relationship will only progress if you hit the milestones that her social group adheres to.

That’s her selection criteria. She wants someone that is smart enough to make it into one of the top universities here. So the right guy is someone that is smart enough for the both of them to secure her future. Basically she’s not into boys from a too good background who might become playboys because their future are secured and have idle time to waste.

As you live here longer you will develop a sense of these social cues and how to best manage your perception to maximize success… :laughing:

20

I don’t understand how spending a lot of time studying could hinder finding a good man. Hell, some of the best I’ve had have been found in libraries.