I don’t read that as fredish. It’s an economics-based argument, and one I agree with.
Too bad Redandy. Nice try. Unfortunately, Jaboney agrees with you, sensing this to be an “economics-based” argument. Zut!
Too bad Redandy. Nice try. Unfortunately, Jaboney agrees with you, sensing this to be an “economics-based” argument. Zut![/quote]Don’t forget: Jaboney agrees with you, ergo, fred does not. He said so. So, what’s the proper answer, fred?
Oh if this were only possible…
As usual you are both wrong and stupid.
Yup.
The proper answer is that Fred agrees with Redandy. The proper answer is that Redandy made a “sensible” argument. The proper answer is that as usual Jaboney has to wax excessively “academic” to make himself appear “intelligent” and therefore less “stupid” by ladeling a point well-made with drippings of “theory.” This is why Fred regretted that Jaboney had agreed with the point made by Redandy since it was sure to lessen its acceptance among the thinking public and that was a shame since the point was as I said well-made. Need it be “economic?” I fail to see why, but again, it does sound more “impressive” when “interpreted” that way.
I am not jumping into the debate prior of this post. Childish.
When reading the OP’s article, I can only refer to things I know and learned since my childhood.
Europe , in the 50-60’s invited many Muslims to do the work that others found to filthy.
Muslim populations grow over the past 50 years with a multiplication factor “X”. They got their mosque’s , they got their respect of religion, and even in some countries freedom to vote, they became “integrated” and were left alone until some terrorists became synonym for this so called peaceful religion…
Now, that it is almost too late, Europe tries to take back what they have lost.
Riots in Paris last year, a few other EU countries which will forbid Muslim females to wear the Hijab, just little drops in the water.
yes, for sure, give it another 10-15 years and Europe will be governed by a Muslim society if we close our eyes.
But at least you will have “peace” since Islam is a Religion of said attribute.
Darn it! I knew I softened it up too much! I should have thrown some quotes in there too.
But at least you will have “peace” since Islam is a Religion of said attribute.[/quote]
FS, is this mend to be ironic ? It sure does.
Muslim groups like Hezbollah and El Fatah are now disputing / fighting each other for the sake of their "belief’ or is it purely political?
What has to be avoided at all stakes is that Europe one day becomes a battleground for these so called "fanatics”
Somali Muslim, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, well-known for challenging Islamic fundamentalists in the Netherlands, where she was elected to the Dutch Parliament and played a role in Theo van Gogh’s film, is now a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute (aka refugee centre for neocons from the now defunct Project for a New American Century). She gave a brief interview to the NYT. A few points to consider from her perspective.
On differences between Muslim experiences in North America and Europe:[quote=“NYT & Ayaan Hirsi”]Asked if she found the situation and attitude of Muslims here different from those in Europe, Ms. Hirsi Ali said she hadn’t yet had enough contact with Muslims in the United States to form an opinion, but she recounted her experience in Canada last year.
A. I took part in a debate and there were many Muslims, and I thought there was a huge difference between the Canadian Muslims and, for example, the Dutch Muslims. The Canadian Muslims were just as angry with me as their counterparts in Holland, but they refrained from shouting, from insulting and from disrupting the session. And that’s what some of the Muslims in Holland would do, and did.
Q. You think the North Americans are doing something right with assimilation?
A. The Canadian Muslims I am talking of, and it is just one experience, spoke perfect English. Our Dutch Muslims hardly speak any, or take the trouble to speak Dutch. The second generation that does seems to have learned only insults and terrible words to throw at other people.[/quote]
On identity, militancy, challenging the fundamentalists, and changing circumstances:[quote=“NYT & Ayaan Hirsi”]Q. As a teenager you wore the hijab and a robe that went down to your ankles. You wrote in your book that it actually helped you feel empowered and individual and superior. So why did you stop covering and start denouncing it?
A. I was just one of the few who went about the streets like that, and it was of my own choice. I wasn’t forced to do it. I try to explain in the book that what might seem as if these radical Muslims who come and indoctrinate young people, as if they force you into something. That’s not the case. It’s an ideology that is consistent with our faith. You know, we are brought up as Muslims. And we are passive Muslims.
And in my case Sister Aziza [a teacher trained in Saudi Arabia] comes around and she makes us active. So it’s all very congruent at that stage. And then we were shown pictures of dead people. Bloodied, killed, large numbers of corpses in Iran. And she says this is what the Jews are doing to Muslims; this is what the Americans are doing to Muslims. So there was the sense first of all as a teenager discovering an aim for your life, developing a sense of morality between right and wrong, belonging to a group that is superior, and all non-Muslims were inferior.
Q. Have you seen any ideology coming from within Islam that gives young Muslims a sense of purpose without the overlay of militancy?
A. They have no alternative message. There is no active missionary work among the youth telling them, do not become jihadis. They do not use media means as much as the jihadis. They simply — they’re reactive and they don’t seem to be able to compete with the jihadis. And every time there is a debate between a real jihadi and, say, what we have decided to call moderate Muslims, the jihadis win. Because they come with the Koran and quotes from the Koran. The come with quotes from the Hadith and the Sunnah, and the traditions of the prophet. And every assertion they make, whether it is that women should be veiled, or Jews should be killed, or Americans are our enemies, or any of that, they win. Because what they have to say is so consistent with what is written in the Koran and the Hadith. And what the moderates fail to do is to say, listen, that’s all in there, but that wasn’t meant for this context. And we have moved on. We can change the Koran, we can change the Hadith. That’s what’s missing. [/quote]
On what’s to be done:[quote=“NYT & Ayaan Hirsi”]Q. When Muslims here talk about rights, the big issue is discrimination, particularly in this post-9/11 era where Muslims have had trouble even traveling through airports.
A. Like all other Muslims who go through this, and all other individuals who go through this, it’s a terrible experience. But it is an experience that I understand. I as a Muslim, or as a human individual, would like to minimize the risk of being blown up on a plane. …
However, I would say singling out people that you think are Muslims simply because they might is not something in an open society that you can defend. [/quote]
Interesting poll that highlights differences discussed earlier between Muslim immigrants in North America and Europe.
[quote=“Environics/ CBC”]More than 80 per cent of Canada’s roughly 700,000 Muslims are broadly satisfied with their lives here and only a very small percentage — 17 per cent — feel that many or most Canadians are hostile toward their religion.
According to a new Environics poll conducted in association with the CBC, a much larger proportion of Canadian Muslims is satisfied with the way things are going today than is the case in Europe. The proportion is greater even than the 61 per cent of Canadians generally who feel their lives are on the right track.
At the same time, there are clearly different perceptions between the Muslim community and other Canadians over such flashpoint issues as integration, the role of women and the wearing of headscarves.
[…]
In general terms, the poll found that 73 per cent of Canadian Muslims describe themselves as “very proud” to be called Canadians, even if many of them see their religion as coming first in certain instances. As well, they have very little sympathy for extremists or terrorist groups and they aren’t crazy about the northern climate — it tops the like least list.
Asked about the arrests last summer of the 18 Muslim men and boys who were allegedly plotting terrorist attacks in southern Ontario, 73 per cent of the Muslim respondents said these attacks were not at all justified; and 82 per cent said they had no sympathy for those who wanted to carry them out.[/quote]
Interesting break down on those last numbers: 73% said there was no justification, whereas 82% had no sympathy for the plotters. So there may be 9% who see a reason for the anger but utterly reject its expression? 
[quote]There are also differences over how much and to what extent minority communities should “blend in” with the Canadian norm.
Almost half (49 per cent) of the general Canadian population feel new immigrants should blend in with the rest of the country, while 40 per cent feel they should be encouraged to maintain their religious and cultural practices. For Canadian Muslims, these numbers are 15 and 65 per cent respectively.
The differences are more pronounced when it comes to women: 81 per cent of non-Muslim Canadians feel ethnic minorities should adapt to mainstream Canadian beliefs about the rights and roles of women, whereas only 36 per cent of Canadian Muslims feel that way, the poll suggests.[/quote]Ok. If the 49% is in favour of a melt-pot approach, that’s disappointing. I’d like to see the question on the “rights and roles of women”, because I want to know why 19% of non-Muslim Canadian women said no. Would also be nice to see a breakdown of the 36% among Muslims: gender, age, ect.
[quote]A majority of the Muslim respondents (53 per cent) would also like to see Islamic Sharia law adopted for divorce and other family disputes, and a much larger number, 86 per cent, of Canadian Muslims do not feel governments should ban the wearing of headscarves by Muslim women in public, including public schools.
Many of these concerns are more strongly backed by young Muslims under 30, the survey suggests, and Haideh Moghissi, a York University sociologist who has worked extensively in this area, says these should probably be seen as more of a “political gesture than a religious one” by those who have felt their community “bearing the brunt of this suspicion and fear” since 9/11.
In fact, almost 60 per cent of Muslim women do not wear any kind of covering on a regular basis, the survey found. And 72 per cent of the respondents said they were not too worried or not worried at all about Muslim women taking on more modern roles in Canadian society.[/quote]
So 73% are very proud to be Canadian, 73% saw no justification for plotting attacks, and 72% aren’t worried about Muslim women taking on more modern roles. That’s pretty consistent. I wonder if it’s the same 27~28% consistently on the other side, and if so, why and who they are.
Am I worried about the 53% who would like to see Sharia law adopted for family disputes? Given the numbers above–particularly the 72% who aren’t worried about women taking on more modern roles–meaning more empowering roles–no, not really. I’m far more interested in the composition of that 27~28%. Not really worried… the same number of people supported Nixon at resignation, and continue to support Bush, so that may be an effective “zero point” on political issues… but very interested and somewhat concerned.
The only really worrisome point is the maybe 18% felt the attack plotters were justified and to some degree may have supported the tactics. :fume: 
From the Environics site:
[quote]
- Three quarters (75 per cent) feel that Muslim immigrants make a positive contribution to Canada. Even a majority (57 per cent) of those who have a negative impression of Islam agree.
- Sixty-eight per cent completely reject the suggestion that ordinary, law-abiding Muslim-Canadians should personally feel any responsibility for violent crimes carried out by others in the name of Islam.[/quote]
The first point is a mixed bag. 75%'s pretty close to the 72~73% above… is it a polling constant? But the 57% who are willing to look beyond a negative impression of the religion to what the people themselves contribute is a somewhat mixed bag: encouraging on the one hand, wtf on the other. 68% in the second question, again comes close to the seemingly constant figure, but seriously, wtf is wrong with the other 32% assigning collective responsibility?
You’re crossing over…good…
The 18% figure is consistent with the viewpoints of British Muslims. 13% of British Muslims believe the 7/7 bombers should be regarded as martyrs.
You’ll be one of us soon.
Don’t be silly. My problem with slap-happy broad stroke ‘analysis’ remains. I’m no less committed to a disaggregation of results–leading to a finer-grained understanding. Determine whether or not it’s the same slice of the population making up that 20-odd percent, and if so, look into why.
Come on, it’s basic deduction. First, start with the facts, then come up with a hypothesis, test it, see if you’ve got a workable theory.
(psst, scripture shouldn’t be taken as factual, nor should religious commandment be --or be taken as–necessarily binding and therefore descriptive of actual ideas, motives, or actions.)
Second, if you arrive at a workable theory, don’t presume that it’s generally applicable. 80% of Canadian Muslims say that their lives are on the right track; that’s 20% more than the general population.
I wonder what the satisfaction level among Muslims is in France? I don’t know, but I bet it’s significantly less. If so, it be good to know why. It’d also be good to know why things change, say between Oct 2001 and November 2005.
Or have things changed?
Those two BBC stories rather muddy the waters if you’re an inductivist, don’t they?
Resistance is futile.
But you’re starting to ask the right questions. That’s something.
Heretic.
Well it obviously wasn’t France’s vociferous opposition to the invasion/occupation of Iraq. However I do recommend you look into it if you get the time. I think you will discover an interesting contradiction between the leftist viewpoint that France has “failed” to integrate Muslim immigrants, and those same immigrants’ demands that France not try to integrate them into French culture. The Arab League made it quite clear, in successive meetings with French officials starting in the 1970s, that the French government would never try to compel Muslim immigrants to adopt French values and beliefs. In return France would receive a steady supply of Muslim workers. Guess that’s worked out well for France.
You may also discover that the French police reported over 9000 incidents of “North African youth” throwing stones at their vehicles before the 2005 riots began. You may learn from the statements of French police officers that whole areas of Paris, Marseilles, and other cities have become “no-go” zones, where every arrest in these zones results in entire apartment complexes emptying in the streets to fight the police. They are becoming much more organized you know. Police/Muslim clashes are commonplace now, with 14 French policeman on averge injured every day.
Dig a bit a further and you may find similar police reports from Malmo, Sweden, multiple cities in Denmark, Germany, and Britain.
But I’m sure that you’ll be greatly comforted to know that there are still plenty of head-in-the-sand liberals who will blame it all on themselves and the rest of us. You agree with them right? Or are you really starting to see things differently?
edit/[quote=“gao_bo_han”]Well it obviously wasn’t France’s vociferous opposition to the invasion/occupation of Iraq. However I do recommend you look into it if you get the time. I think you will discover an interesting contradiction between the leftist viewpoint that France has “failed” to integrate Muslim immigrants, and those same immigrants’ demands that France not try to integrate them into French culture.[/quote] Obviously; Oct 2001 was a little soon for that.
Tell me, have you considered the difference between assimilation and integration of immigrants? /edit
[quote=“gao_bo_han”]…But I’m sure that you’ll be greatly comforted to know that there are still plenty of head-in-the-sand liberals who will blame it all on themselves and the rest of us. You agree with them right? Or are you really starting to see things differently?[/quote]Wow. Not only have you already decided why it’s happened, you’ve uncovered the guilty parties. Truly astounding, Holmes.
That’s alright then, keep the blinders on if you like.
The unwillingness for some people to even admit there is a problem, and has been for a while now, and where we are headed in the future in this regard, absolutely amazes me. 
I guess I’m likely to be branded an “Islamophobe” for saying that though.
[quote=“Mer”]That’s alright then, keep the blinders on if you like.[/quote]Thank you, Mer, for that insightful contribution. I now see that I’ve been blind to aspects of these issues which I’d never before even considered. Henceforth, I shall walk in the light of reason and truth, guided by your shining example.
Whatever you say Mr. Rumsfeld.
[quote=“Jaboney”]Henceforth, I shall walk in the light of reason and truth, guided by your shining example.
[/quote]
Dude, I’m not trying to tell you how to think. I just don’t think you’re capable of being objective when discussing this topic and others like it, and as such, I have to disagree with your take on it.
Great. Do so. But telling me I’ve got my head stuck in the sand is hardly enlightening. If I’m wrong show me where, how, and why. I’ll thank you for it.
Well, I think gao_bo_han has already done that. Over and over. And yes, I know it is lame to rely on another poster to make my point, but I do appreciate his insight and perspective on the issue an awful lot.
Sorry if I ruffled feathers without adding anything ‘enlightening’ of my own to the discussion.
Well, I think gao_bo_han has already done that. Over and over. And yes, I know it is lame to rely on another poster to make my point, but I do appreciate his insight and perspective on the issue an awful lot.[/quote]Well then, that doesn’t help me much. gao_bo_han’s well aware of the differences between our positions and approaches. Doesn’t make much sense to me, explaining the behavior of contemporary individuals with reference to a text 700 years old, or group identity. On the other hand, explaining individual behavior with reference to conditions, education, interpretation of important touchstones…