Bernard Lewis: Muslims 'about to take over Europe'

I would describe many of these conflicts as rooted in the biological tendency of humans to form identity groups which then compete for power and resources. The “flag” that each group waves is essentially arbitrary. “Islam” can be such a marker if Muslims see themselves as a group viz. non-Muslims, but this doesn’t work in an all-Muslim society.

I don’t know why everybody wants to demonize Wahhabism. (Gao adds the Salafi school of fiqk, or Islamic jurisprudence.) A lot of groups are equally conservative. I think it’s just that they’re “new money” (or new power) and threaten established groups by rising up in the world.

Gao, let’s modify your questions to deal with abortion-clinic bombing. How should America deal with Baptist abortion-clinic bombers? Here are some thoughts:

  1. Shut down all churches built by the Baptists, or any other hard-core Christian group. (What is “hard-core”? I dunno, and neither do you, I bet.)

  2. Offer financial assistance to non-fundamentalist churches, like the Unitarians. (This is actually done in many European countries, which bankroll state-controlled churches.)

  3. Imprison or deport any Baptists calling for the banning of abortion, or saying that abortion is murder. (Revise Freedom of Speech laws accordingly.)

  4. Enact assimilation policies. Immigration’s not the problem with Baptists, but perhaps we could organize some sort of boycott, or make them ineligible for government services, until their preachers and leaders are brought under control. Heh, and make them burn a pinch of incense before Caesar’s genius (I guess Bush would be our Caesar, so Bush’s genius!) and accept the Mark of the Beast.

Well put, Jaboney. I can’t help but conclude that when intelligent westerners advocate simplistic, jingoistic ‘solutions’ to the conflict with the Muslim East that it’s anything more than self-delusion and demagoguery, particularly when things get worse from year to year under those policies. In other words, you can tell a tree by its fruit.

As always, there’s only one path out of strife to peace and stability whether it’s a conflict between individuals or between civilizations – truth and justice.

If your version of ‘truth and justice’ ends up creating more strife, hate and distrust though rather than continuing to preach it’s really time to step back and examine your own beliefs for what they truly are.

Speaking of fruit…Is it easier kneeling for you? I mean, having a banana for a spine must make it very difficult to stand up.

Perhaps you should express that opinion to Theo Van Gogh and Daniel Pearl. I’m sure they’d be interested.

Kumbaya. :bow:

Perhaps you should express that opinion to Theo Van Gogh and Daniel Pearl. I’m sure they’d be interested.[/quote]
You think they’d be more interested in directly resorting to violence?
Isn’t that why they’re dead, because simply-minded fools resorted to violence?
:loco:

[quote=“Jaboney”]
Isn’t that why they’re dead, because simply-minded fools resorted to violence?
:loco:[/quote]

Simple minded fools are able only to teach English in to kids in Taiwan and drone on and on and on about things they have no clue about because they are losers.

Kumbaya. :bow:

Asshole.

[quote=“Doctor Evil”][quote=“Jaboney”]
Isn’t that why they’re dead, because simply-minded fools resorted to violence?
:loco:[/quote]

Simple minded fools are able only to teach English in to kids in Taiwan and drone on and on and on about things they have no clue about because they are losers.

Kumbaya. :bow:

Asshole.[/quote]
Keep trying.
Or don’t.

Say, how about throwing some light on one of the topics at hand?
Tell me, how’s it feel, being that bitter? Trying to turn futile rage and frustration into humor, but getting no further than spewing venom… resorting to violence to make an impression… what’s that like? Enlighten us. Provide some insight into the radical ‘mind’?

Jaboney, why don’t you enlighten us about this chip on your shoulder? You’re here daily ranting and moaning about US politics, policy and the US military…yet when someone asks you questions about the Canadian military, you run off like a 5 year old girl who’s pissed her panties.

What’s wrong? Depressed because you born on the wrong side of the border? The knowledge deep down inside that even if George Bush granted you US citizenship, you’ll [i]never[/i] be good enough? That all that theory you learned in school is bullshit in the real world?

Christ, someone should slap you upside the head with a big cold Clue Fish.

Kumbaya. :bow:

[quote=“Doctor Evil”]Jaboney, why don’t you enlighten us about this chip on your shoulder? You’re here daily ranting and moaning about US politics, policy and the US military…yet when someone asks you questions about the Canadian military, you run off like a 5 year old girl who’s pissed her panties.[/quote]Nonsense. I treat the Canadian military in the same manner that I do the American. TC’s into the minutia of things military in a way that I am not. He wanted information I would do a poor job of providing, so I gave him a few links to encourage him. (Not that he thanked me for them, but I noted that he made use of one of the sites a couple of days ago.)

[quote=“Doctor Evil”]What’s wrong? Depressed because you born on the wrong side of the border? The knowledge deep down inside that even if George Bush granted you US citizenship, you’ll [i]never[/i] be good enough? That all that theory you learned in school is bullshit in the real world?[/quote]Nothing. No. No. It is? That’s great. BS does wonders making the flowers grow. Whereas your… what is it…resentment, inadequacy, frustration… does what good, for you, or anyone?

[quote=“Doctor Evil”]Christ, someone should slap you upside the head with a big cold Clue Fish.[/quote]Or pin a letter to my chest with a knife? Really, the impulse to resort to violence to convey a message is remarkably consistent among a subset of the population. Why is that?

As I am directly mentioned I will respond briefly:

[quote=“jaboney”]TC’s into the minutia of things military in a way that I am not.[/quote]As this has not precluded you from posting baiting comments and insipid rhetorical questions, this is not really much of an explanation. “The devil is in the details” or so it goes.[quote=“jaboney”]I treat the Canadian military in the same manner that I do the American.[/quote]You post next to nil re:the Canadian Military and/or their mission and experiences. Since you are a Canadian your obsession with things negative about the US Military and US governmental actions in general is worthy of comment, IMO. I merely suggested that it might be more useful of your energies, and perhaps mentally more balanced, if you would consider devoting some time and energy to the Canadian side of things. Lets see what your native Canadian POV can bring forth. Perfectly logical. Anyway - more than enough of that.

Here is an article related to the OT of this thread. Might be a good read for some.

[quote]An Uncertain Road: Muslims and the Future of Europe

Download the complete report (444k .pdf)

Introduction

Throughout Europe today, it is not uncommon to see women wearing headscarves and men with skull caps and beards. On many European streets, shops now sport signs in Arabic and other Near Eastern languages and sell an array of exotic looking products from the Middle East and other parts of the Islamic world. Indeed, in the space of a few decades, whole neighborhoods in cities like Birmingham, Rotterdam and Paris have been transformed. Streets that have witnessed hundreds of years of European history are now playing host to a decidedly non-Western people and culture.

This is the new Europe, one in which a rapidly growing Muslim population is making its presence felt in societies that until recently were largely homogeneous. Muslims are still very much minorities in Western and Central European countries, making up roughly 5 percent of the European Union’s total population. But a number of demographic trends point to dramatic change in the years ahead.

Islam is already the fastest-growing religion in Europe. Driven by immigration and high birthrates, the number of Muslims on the continent has tripled in the last 30 years. Most demographers forecast a similar or even higher rate of growth in the coming decades.

The social impact of this growing population is magnified by a low birthrate among native Europeans. After a post-World War II baby boom, birthrates in Europe have dropped to an average of 1.45 children per couple, far below the 2.1 needed to keep population growth at replacement levels. The continent that gave the rest of the world tens of millions of immigrants and Thomas Malthaus’ dire predictions of overpopulation is now faced with a shrinking populace.

Amid these demographic shifts lies a host of social challenges. While many European Muslims have become successful in their new homes, many others do not speak their host country’s language well, if at all, and are often jobless and poor. Moreover, segregation, whether by choice or necessity, is common, with large numbers of Muslims living in ghettos where the crime and poverty rates are high.

For Europeans, too, Muslim immigration poses special challenges. Unlike the United States – a land of immigrants with no dominant ethnic group – most nations in Europe are built around a population base with a common ethnicity. Moreover, these countries possess deep historical, cultural, religious and linguistic traditions. Injecting hundreds of thousands, and in some cases millions, of people who look, speak and act differently into these settings often makes for a difficult social fit.

But the growing size and importance of the Muslim population in most European countries is forcing the continent’s governments – even those with established immigration policies – to focus more intently on trying to bring this community into the mainstream. Recent efforts have ranged from new laws aimed at hastening the pace of assimilation, such as the recent French headscarf ban, to proposals to assist in creating a more homegrown, European brand of Islam, as is happening in the Netherlands.

The successful integration of European Muslims is crucial to the future of Europe. Prognosticators may disagree on the community’s ultimate demographic and social impact, but all believe that Muslims at the very least will be a significant and sizable minority that will play an important role in shaping the continent’s future.

Download the complete report (444k .pdf)

pewforum.org/docs/index.php?DocID=60[/quote]

As demonstrated, Moslem imigres are not assimilating into their host countries culture. This coupled with poverty and high birth rates is reason for concern.
Good article.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]As demonstrated, Moslem imigres are not assimilating into their host countries culture. This coupled with poverty and high birth rates is reason for concern.[/quote]Some European countries go for assimilation, some for multiculturalism, but all seem to be having problems with integration.

Canada goes for mutliculturalism, the US for assimilation, and both are doing very well with integration.

What’s the difference? Is there a selection bias in which immigrants go where? Is North America’s history of accepting and integrating immigrants making a difference? If so, why Australia’s problems?

Immigrant selection bias cited, but no numbers provided.

[quote=“Reza Aslan: American Islam book review”]Yet American Muslims have, for the most part, avoided the conflicts of identity and integration that plague so many of their far more marginalized co-religionists in Europe. This partly has to do with economics: While most European Muslims are descended from impoverished immigrant families who flooded into Europe as guest workers at the end of World War II, most Muslims in the United States are, like the protagonists of Barrett’s book, either middle-class converts or well-heeled and often highly educated immigrants from a wide array of ethnic backgrounds.[/quote]I wonder if Europe’s not getting more mass migrations: wholesale movement of communities, which are therefore better able to maintain old ways in a new land, and have less impetus to adapt.

And here’s a point never raised. Why ever not?

Is this from Shakespeare? :roflmao:

Is this from Shakespeare? :roflmao:[/quote]

Apparently not. There’s nought much to be found.
At least, my search came to naught.

And what word of wisdom from TainanCowboy? Alas, lo these many days, naught has been heard. I fear we must look yonder… 'less he’s some particular intelligence to share? I think not; Yorick teaches us better. Away, let us away… [/exeunt]

If the discussion is why North America succeeds in assimilation where Europe doesn’t I could toss out a few ideas – you can evaluate their validity on your own.

  1. Density – from what I understand there are fewer large, dense Muslim communities in the U.S and Canada, which makes individuals more likely to have a need to blend in.

  2. Employment – in the U.S. a motivated Muslim has few, if any barriers to obtaining employment. They aren’t stuck at the bottom of social hierarchies and are likely to be seen as hard workers.

  3. Availability of land and housing – it’s fairly easy to buy yourself your own personal castle where you can pretty much practice whatever religious rituals you like.

  4. General societal freedom – unless you make an effort to broadcast that you are a Muslim, people in the states generally won’t know and won’t care, and probably aren’t going to treat you any worse than they would anyone else.

  5. The people themselves – It takes more effort to get to North America than Europe, and once you get here you aren’t getting any automatic welfare (at least in the U.S), so the tendancy would be for more economically ambitious Muslims to give it a shot.

  6. Wealth – hey don’t mess with a good thing – it’s all well and good to send aid to some guy fighting the Israelis or whatever, but don’t do anything that’s going to cost my my Castle and my Benz.

I could probably think up a few more, but that’s a start.

Sounds reasonable to me. Except for #1, it’s all about social mobility and the ability to integrate, though not necessarily assimilate. And the onus for #2 - #4, #6, is on the state and society. Only #1 and #5 are properly issues with the immigrants themselves, and in the first instance, it’s only an issue of concentration.