Best fighting style in MMA

Recreation Sports
21

The thread that’s back from the dead.

While AC’s point is technically not correct, I understand the sentiment. One response is yours; that just because it’s illegal doesn’t mean we don’t know it and train it. In fact, this used to happen regularly. Andy or whoever was training would say, “Now this is illegal, but…” Lately I’ve been using another related response.

The implication is that you could effectively use these techniques against someone trained in MMA or BJJ just because they haven’t been trained in them and you have. I think that’s a pretty big claim. I’ve sparred with people who pinched and gouged me. It’s not as painful as you’d think and I wasn’t expecting it, plus it takes up a hand. It may help someone who has nothing better to use, but I don’t think that a lot most banned techniques are that useful against someone who expecting them. Back in the old days, I remember Andy Wang talking about vale tudo matches that allowed head butting. Early UFC’s allowed groin strikes. Even when they’re allowed, they’re not the big make or break moves that people without serious fight experience imagine them to be.

Do you agree?

One last point. Johnnie Morton was knocked out in the first round of his debut in K-1 Heros’ -Dynamite!! USA
sherdog.com/fightfinder/figh … erID=21783
His opponent Bernard Ackah is listed as training Tae Kwon Do.

22

Dear Mr. Sommers;
I have heard that Wing Chun is used in the UFC. Is this correct and does that serve as “proof” that traditional southern Shaolin systems can win in modern day cage fighting?

“lets get it on”! (phrase trademarked 2005 by Big John McCarthy LAPD)

yours in martial truth,
Yip Man Brian

This is me and Mr. Sommers battling it out in a former (Qing dynasty) lifetime.

23

[quote=“ScottSommers”]The thread that’s back from the dead.

While AC’s point is technically not correct, I understand the sentiment. One response is yours; that just because it’s illegal doesn’t mean we don’t know it and train it. In fact, this used to happen regularly. Andy or whoever was training would say, “Now this is illegal, but…” Lately I’ve been using another related response.

The implication is that you could effectively use these techniques against someone trained in MMA or BJJ just because they haven’t been trained in them and you have. I think that’s a pretty big claim. I’ve sparred with people who pinched and gouged me. It’s not as painful as you’d think and I wasn’t expecting it, plus it takes up a hand. It may help someone who has nothing better to use, but I don’t think that a lot most banned techniques are that useful against someone who expecting them. Back in the old days, I remember Andy Wang talking about vale tudo matches that allowed head butting. Early UFC’s allowed groin strikes. Even when they’re allowed, they’re not the big make or break moves that people without serious fight experience imagine them to be.

Do you agree?

One last point. Johnnie Morton was knocked out in the first round of his debut in K-1 Heros’ -Dynamite!! USA
sherdog.com/fightfinder/figh … erID=21783
His opponent Bernard Ackah is listed as training Tae Kwon Do.[/quote]

Ok Scott I agree with you that 99 times out of 100 or more a trained in condition MMA fighter would beat the average man of around the same size even if an MMA fighter was only allowed to use techniques inside the UFC rules and the average “red neck” could bite scratch etc etc.

What you say about pinching and stuff is true. A few years ago (about 10 years ago) i was doing full contact sparring with a guy that claimed he was an expert in both thai boxing and Chinese pressure point attack. I had him on the ground in a headlock with his other arm pinned under my leg. His free arm was ineffectively punching me. He then put his hand into my arm pit and started poking it with his finger. This just annoyed me and it was a bit uncomfortable so I tapped him out by crushing his neck. Also i agree sometimes biting is not as effective as people make out. However sticking your fingers in someones eyes who isgrappling is very effective. Attacking the nuts if the opponent is not wearing a box is highly effective (if you can get a clean strike) I also think head butting really should not of been taken out. Igor Vochankin (can never spell it) was exremely good at using it. In the Russian cage fights it is used a lot.

I understand why you get upset at people knocking the UFC. I am just trying to point out to you perhaps you want to be careful not to become like the TMA people used to be, and close off to anything else (just a thought). UFC is great (MMA fighters are the best on a one on one unarmed fight i agree) but there is other great stuff out there like the “dog brothers” for example. I am a big fan of the Fillipino martial arts and the dog brothers. I’m sure you have heard of them. They do full contact but with sticks! The UFC refused their offer of staging a fight under their rules many years ago. Dana White said the dog brothers style of fighting was too brutal for them right now!

24

Brian Kennedy, you are the man. Expert of the martial arts that you are, you are up on the most cutting edge of kung fu news. Yes, apparently it is so. I understand that there are Wing Chun fighters represented in the top ranks of the UFC, although only practitioners located in the inner sanctum of Wing Chun seem to know who these fighters are, since they never, ever talk about it in public. But I am told by representatives of this inner sanctum of kung fu true that Wing Chun is the next fighting style poised to revolutionize the UF, following BJJ, muay thai, wrestling, and judo.

I just can’t wait.

Fenlander, I suppose my comments to Brian don’t position me very well for a response to your points. But in fact I agree with you. As it turns out, I was just citing the Dogbrothers to the Wing Chun inner sanctum that I referred to above as an example of how traditional styles can be made effective.

I hope I didn’t leave the kind of impression that would make you think I question a group like the Dogbrothers. I have trained with a Dogbrother, and my honest feeling is they’re still too traditional, but really there’s no denying that Marc Denny is a genius.

I really do look forward to seeing what the Dogbrothers are doing next.

25

That’s weird. I know very little of this UMC stuff but what I have seen did make me think it would be full of wing chun folks. None in the fights I saw, but certainly the parameters were made for stepping in and mixing it up.

What about Choy Lay Fut? That El Kabong move they reserve for wing chun might come in handy?

HG

26

[quote=“ScottSommers”]Brian Kennedy, you are the man. Expert of the martial arts that you are, you are up on the most cutting edge of kung fu news. Yes, apparently it is so. I understand that there are Wing Chun fighters represented in the top ranks of the UFC, although only practitioners located in the inner sanctum of Wing Chun seem to know who these fighters are, since they never, ever talk about it in public. But I am told by representatives of this inner sanctum of kung fu true that Wing Chun is the next fighting style poised to revolutionize the UF, following BJJ, muay thai, wrestling, and judo.

I just can’t wait.

Fenlander, I suppose my comments to Brian don’t position me very well for a response to your points. But in fact I agree with you. As it turns out, I was just citing the Dogbrothers to the Wing Chun inner sanctum that I referred to above as an example of how traditional styles can be made effective.

I hope I didn’t leave the kind of impression that would make you think I question a group like the Dogbrothers. I have trained with a Dogbrother, and my honest feeling is they’re still too traditional, but really there’s no denying that Marc Denny is a genius.

I really do look forward to seeing what the Dogbrothers are doing next.[/quote]

I am a big fan of MMA. MMA follows the same principal of evolution that you adapt to the environment or die out.

I just don’t want MMA to be represented by ONLY what goes on in the UFC etc. it is much bigger than that. I won’t say it starts at Bruce LEE as it doesn’t. It goes much further back than that to Ancient Greece etc. Ah I can’t explain myself! I think you get my drift.

I also don’t think it is right to rate every martial artist by if they have been in a UFC style competition. For example I totally rate Danny Inosanto. I saw a video of him training US police officers about knife defence. A traffic stop training exercise, where in a split second he throws the driving licence in the face of a police officer and has his balisong up against the officers jugular vein. The police officer could not even draw his gun out his holster. He then does it again even when the officer knows what he is going to do.! Also if you only train MMA for UFC style competition then that is also limiting. How about knife defence, stick defence multiple opponents etc etc

But then again what really is good against a knife anyway :smiley: In reality. :laughing:

27

Let me quote a Dogbrother on this issue of defense against the knife. “Even a master will frequently get cut in a knife fight.” The point of this is that edged weapons are all so dangerous that you sure don’t want to dealing with one unless you have Colonel Colt on your side.

And yes, I agree with you about MMA. I suppose you’re right that I sometimes come across like I think the UFC is God’s gift to MMA. This is more because I’m usually dealing with people who don’t know anything about other interpretations of MMA. So if anything, it’s a personal apology to you that I should be making to you for lumping you in with the ‘other’.

28

[quote=“ScottSommers”]Let me quote a Dogbrother on this issue of defense against the knife. “Even a master will frequently get cut in a knife fight.” The point of this is that edged weapons are all so dangerous that you sure don’t want to dealing with one unless you have Colonel Colt on your side.

And yes, I agree with you about MMA. I suppose you’re right that I sometimes come across like I think the UFC is God’s gift to MMA. This is more because I’m usually dealing with people who don’t know anything about other interpretations of MMA. So if anything, it’s a personal apology to you that I should be making to you for lumping you in with the ‘other’.[/quote]

totally impressive

appology reciprocated for any mis-understanding.

. :notworthy:

29

Super, that is settled.

Sifu Brian

30

But Mr. Kennedy, one last question. If the fighters depicted in these beautiful prints are you and in another life, which one am I? The tall one? Or the short?

31

Scott, how could you forget, that was just a couple of hundred years ago. You are on the right in both pictures. What happened was, you (in the picture on the right hand page) attacked me with an illegal groin and throat strike. You thought using these illegal tactics would be the magic silver bullet that saved you.

But not so, as you can see in the next illustration, I went to the mat. Using my Fukien Dog Boxing {this fact is true, there is one form of southern Shaolin, Fukien Dog Boxing, and yes that is what it is called, that uses ground fighting. It is nowhere nearly as sophisticated as modern arts like BJJ but nonetheless it was around back in the 1800s in southern China}.

Anyway back to the story, using my Dog Boxing I get you in a half guard. I then get an ankle lock and you tap out. A certain Mr. Hsieh awards me a blue belt in Wing Chun. You and I remain friends, but alas our story has, at least in that lifetime, an unhappy end.

A distant cousin of yours who lives in the same village as we did thought that you and I were, in his words, “wasting our time fucking around with martial arts”. He, instead of spending his money on Dog Boxing lessons, saves it up and sends off to a strange far away place called “America” to a company called “Colt Firearms” for a somewhat ironically called item known as the “Colt Peacemaker”, which is a well known type of cowboy revolver. {this too is a true factoid, the Colt Peacemaker had a reputation, even back in the 1800s, among Chinese, particularly Chinese in the southern coastal areas as the “Big Face Gun” to own. Having one was a sign you had made it in the world. I mention that as kind of a historical aside, a lot of westerners seem to think nobody had pistols in China, or Taiwan, back in the 1800s, there were a fair number of privately owned firearms.}

Anyway back to the story, so one night you, me and your cousin are drinking at some dive bar. You and I and him get into some kind of squabble about some large breasted femme fatale named Jo-Lin. Your cousin gets mad and goes out to his ox cart and gets his Colt Peacemaker from under the seat. Comes back into the bar and blows both of our heads off, then storms out the door with Big Boob Jolin (who I have a feeling was reborn on this island, although I can not be sure of that).

We spend about 150 years in Limbo and then are reborn in British Columbia (you) and Florida (me)….which brings us to the present.

Do you remember any of this now?

Yours in past life metaphysics,
Brian

32

Never in my life would I have imagined a fight with a Shaolin Dog Boxer. Never in my life would I have imagined such a thing as Shaolin Dog Boxing. But just this morning I Googled it, and sure enough there it is - Shaolin Dog Boxing. It’s also interesting to hear about firearms in early China. I get an entirely different sense of early China from talking to you. Academic literature tends to focus on elite and political life. Your writing is almost an ethnography of rural working-class life.

But there I am getting all serious; the interlife period does bad things to my memory. These events would explain my childhood fear of dogs and being tore limb from limb and why I have such a wholesome belief in the sanctity of marriage and the family. Thanks again.

33

I actually find the reality of Chinese and Taiwanese martial arts far more interesting than the non-sense stories; the chi balls, the flying swords and all the rest of the nonsense, including the nonsense one still hears about Taiwan’s martial arts world.

take care,
Brian
p.s. I understand that Taiwan will soon be awash with bjj teacher talent? It is either feast or famine.

34

And back in the day it was not just the boys taking care of business, here is a photo from 1934 of two Chinese female flappers getting ready to get busy with the gloves.

What it actually is, is a National Guo Shu match. As part of the Nationalist Government plan to make a stronger, more modern China, they sponsored a nationwide martial arts program (that included womens programs) and as part of that there were city, county, provincial and national matches held.

The idea of Chinese women getting the gloves on and getting busy in the ring is still alive and well. Scott and I went to see a friend of ours, a guy named Vaughn, fight in a boxing tourney held up in Shihlin awhile back. And there were a fair number of high school girls fighting.

Take care,
Brian

35

This is an amazing photo. Yes, it is true that Brian and I have seen women’s sanda events, I suspect that the women in the tournament were aboriginal. There are also a large number of girls who compete in judo. One of the head coaches in my club is a woman and we have a fair number of girls training. The quality of fighting is not amazingly high, but it’s OK; it’s worth watching.

But then none of this should be surprising for a nation that regularly produces international quality women’s Tae Kwon Do.

36

[quote=“brianlkennedy”]I actually find the reality of Chinese and Taiwanese martial arts far more interesting than the non-sense stories; the chi balls, the flying swords and all the rest of the nonsense, including the nonsense one still hears about Taiwan’s martial arts world.

take care,
Brian
p.s. I understand that Taiwan will soon be awash with bjj teacher talent? It is either feast or famine.[/quote]

Interesting discussion.

Most things in Taiwan seem to happen late. Paul Young (pop star) was huge here when he became a “has been” in the west. BJJ was the ultimate martial art until the Gracie’s started getting their butts kicked by MMA practitioners. Jet Kune do used to be the ultimate as did Thai boxing. So it won’t surprise me if lots of BJJ guys come here.

Things seem to be going back to favoring the striker again (with counter wrestling skills). Good for the sport as everybody loves a KO. I think Jackson will maybe do for MMA what ALI did for boxing. He is a real showman and is probably the most successful black fighter yet in MMA. I’m sure you will see a lot more top black and hispanic fighters winning and maybe dominating in MMA as the prize money goes up and they switch from boxing to MMA. Grappling quality has always been great in MMA but striking was never on average as good as the wrestling. Jackson, crocop etc have changed that.

As for martial arts.

if I was to bet on a strong aggressive man with a knife (who can and is willling to use it) versus a top MMA champion my money would go on the guy with the knife!

UFC is a competition that fits well in the western mind set. It is very chivalrous. Two guys of similar weights, both unarmed in a ring with rules and a referee. This tests which man will win a fair fight. Who is the best warrior ? The Eastern mind set (such as Taiwan) is the opposite of course. They use weapons as a matter of first resort and not last resort. They will gang up and put as many men against one man as possible. They will attack by surprise without warning and not stop stamping on you even when unconscious.

Some young Taiwanese gangsters (street thugs) I know (distant in laws) who are around the 20 year old mark said that they don’t believe in fighting more than five on one, they don’t go for the twenty to one thing !!! That to them is a fair fight (five on one)! So yeah sure UFC Pride will test the best fighter. But martial arts is more than that it is about defending yourself from being hurt, whether that means running away or using weapons etc etc. I think MMA in its true sense and not just competition is probably the most adaptable training routine for street defense unless it is only focussed on competition and not competition that combines street defense and weapons training.
I have met a few people that have trained in Karate for several years that admitted to me that they actually froze and urinated themselves when being attacked and forgot everything that was taught them. They then got beaten up. However after doing full contact training they were better able to use their skills.
Incidentally those young gangsters want me to teach them chokes, boxing and eskrima. Do you think I should teach them ?

37

It’s true that striking is making a comeback in MMA in terms of the preparation of top-ranked heavyweight fighters. Middleweights are still dominated by grapplers and I suspect that to remain the case for a long, long time.

I generally don’t ascribe to cultural explanations for things. Sanda is huge in China. Andy Wang told me that top matches have TV audiences in the hundreds of millions, but I’m not sure if that’s correct. TKD is huge in Taiwan and Korea. There are many combat sports that are able to attract huge public interest in Asia, not to mention the historical popularity of commercial fighting sports in Japan. On the other hand, I don’t doubt that the strategies of underground merchants in Taiwan might differ from those used in North America or Europe, but then I don’t know any such people either here or in back home.

38

It’s true that striking is making a comeback in MMA in terms of the preparation of top-ranked heavyweight fighters. Middleweights are still dominated by grapplers and I suspect that to remain the case for a long, long time.

I generally don’t ascribe to cultural explanations for things. Sanda is huge in China. Andy Wang told me that top matches have TV audiences in the hundreds of millions, but I’m not sure if that’s correct. TKD is huge in Taiwan and Korea. There are many combat sports that are able to attract huge public interest in Asia, not to mention the historical popularity of commercial fighting sports in Japan. On the other hand, I don’t doubt that the strategies of underground merchants in Taiwan might differ from those used in North America or Europe, but then I don’t know any such people either here or back home.