Perhaps I don’t understand your logic.
I was brought up differently.
To know what was right and wrong, I was taught to first consult my conscience … not my lawyer. And for that matter … The Golden Rule.
[quote]You ever borrowed a book from a library?[/quote]The library paid for the book[quote]Seen a painting at an art gallery?[/quote]The art gallery bought the painting[quote]Listened to a song on the radio?[/quote]The radio station paid the record company[quote]Did you pay the artists anything? No?[/quote]Yes, did you ?
[quote]From what a certain lawyer on this forum tells me, downloading music for your own listening pleasurte is ‘fair use’ and therefore legal. [/quote]Napster, audiogalaxyand kuro.com.tw tried that one, look what happened to them.
I wonder how many of my things Bu Lai En has downloaded without paying for, or how many of my brother-in-law’s songs he his downloaded without paying for ? He works 12 hours a day for about $20,000NT a month, must one of those rich artists who can afford it. I am not Madonna, you know me, how can you say it ok to steal from me and my family ? How do you justify that ? (Ok, you probably won’t find anything of mine of Kazaa for a month or two, but you definately will of my brother-in-law)
I wonder if Bu Lai En would be happy to work for nothing ? So why expect others to ? Want to teach English for free ? You’re not loosing anything.
Would you sneek in a cinema and watch a film without paying ? You weren’t going to pay anyway, so they aren’t loosing anything.
The sad part of this discussion is that the pro-theft camp justifies its position based on what is marginally legal. This means that if my lawyer thinks it is OK, then I’m justified in doing it.
Societies become great because they base the majority of their constraints on non-legislated rules of conduct. When I was young, I was taught to judge situations based on what was morally correct, based on faith and conviction. This means that I was taught to follow the spirit of the law. It also means that sometimes we are called to break the written law because it is morally wrong. But 99% of the time we are called to go beyond the law in practicing what is morally right … even when there isn’t a law … even when no one is looking.
However, the discussion here has degenerated into (a) what can I legally get away with, (b) what can I get away with because their isn’t enforcement, and © how can I justify myself with an argument that says, “everybody’s doing it,” so it must be OK.
Societies start to crumble when this path of thought is chosen.
pinesay
hee… hee… society is crumbling all around us… and it started with me downloading some songs off the internet.
I AM guided by my conscience, and believe me, my conscience tells me it’s quite ok to listen and enjoy music.
The concept that keeps getting thrown around is that you are “stealing” something. Sorry, I just don’t see it.
[quote]
The sad part of this discussion is that the pro-theft camp justifies its position based on what is marginally legal.[/quote]
It is against the law to smoke marijuana, if I so chose to smoke marijuana, would that make me an immoral person? I’m quite capable of making my own moral judgements thank you. But then again, maybe I’m a bad person.
My we have some moral crusaders 'round here, don’t we?
It’s those damn kids, no respect for the law!
BFM
[quote]
or how many of my brother-in-law’s songs he his downloaded without paying for ? He works 12 hours a day for about $20,000 a month, [/quote]
Is that 20,000NT or 20,000 US? Who is your brother-in-law? If I knew, I could probablly find some music on the internet, and if his music was any good, who knows? maybe I’d buy a CD 
[quote=“akosh”]BFM
[quote]
or how many of my brother-in-law’s songs he his downloaded without paying for ? He works 12 hours a day for about $20,000 a month, [/quote]
Is that 20,000NT or 20,000 US? Who is your brother-in-law? If I knew, I could probablly find some music on the internet, and if his music was any good, who knows? maybe I’d buy a CD 
[/quote]$20,000NT, Sorry, missed it off. He’s a struggling producer/writer who has had songs published on famous artistes CD’s, but most people probably just downloaded it instead of buying it.
I don’t want you to think that is is faceless executives you are depriving of income. It’s people like me too. Bill Gates isn’t the only person at Microsoft, there a lot of normal people just trying to make a decent living, just like you and me.
Do artists create art just for the money, or are they doing it for other reasons? Very few painters, writers, sculptors, or musicians make any real money but they keep on doing it. Why is this?
I feel that human beings are natural communicators, who create art to fulfil an inner need to share their thoughts. Whether you are Van Gogh, or simply someone posting at Forumosa, you are sharing your thoughts and observations with the world because the act is it’s own reward. All that sordid money-making crap is just record company sharks trying to capitalise on either:
a) the genuine talents of people who have something to say and will say it regardless,
b) the stupidity of people who are prepared to shell out big bucks for over-hyped crap.
What exactly do big record companies do for me that I need to pay them money anyway? I don’t need marketing to tell me what I like. The music I listen to is not promoted in any way other than personal recommendation. But I don’t get the option of simply rewarding the artist for the contribution he has made to my life, I have to keep a bunch of record company execs in clover even though they contribute nothing.
I’ve spent a fortune supporting k-passa over the years, and am glad that all the money has gone to the band. The marketing executives who want to decide on my behalf what music is worth publishing can go screw themselves.
This post is copyrighted, btw.
rights, so the reason, he has to make do with 20,000 NT a month, is because “most people probably just downloaded it instead of buying it.”
The truth is I don’t download music off the internet. Sadly, I haven’t the money to afford a computer at the moment. Though, I do have friends burn CDs for me. Often they are mixes of a lot of differnet tunes that I will want to learn up on guitar. Other times, a friend will just pass a CD on to me, thinking it will be something I would enjoy, or it will be something that I can’t find in Taiwan. I also spend money on CDs from stores. I have many friends who play in bands back home and there are many smaller bands in Taipei that I have supported by buying their CDs. I used to spend a lot of money on CDs. My point, it is one that people have made before… people who download or “steal” music, are the very same people who are often the biggest fans and supporters of music… Don’t know about software, haven’t given it that much thought, as I don’t own a computer and am a techno-ignramus.
[quote=“akosh”]rights, so the reason, he has to make do with 20,000 NT a month, is because “most people probably just downloaded it instead of buying it.” [/quote]I was trying to say that he doesn’t “deserve it”, niether do I. Or do you think I do “deserve it” because I’m “so rich” ?
[quote]The truth is I don’t download music off the internet. Sadly, I haven’t the money to afford a computer at the moment. Though, I do have friends burn CDs for me. Often they are mixes of a lot of differnet tunes that I will want to learn up on guitar. Other times, a friend will just pass a CD on to me, thinking it will be something I would enjoy, or it will be something that I can’t find in Taiwan. I also spend money on CDs from stores. I have many friends who play in bands back home and there are many smaller bands in Taipei that I have supported by buying their CDs. I used to spend a lot of money on CDs. My point, it is one that people have made before… people who download or “steal” music, are the very same people who are often the biggest fans and supporters of music… Don’t know about software, haven’t given it that much thought, as I don’t own a computer and am a techno-ignramus.[/quote]They can support it by buying it, so they make some more music, like you do.
If was in it for the money, I would be an English Teacher and earn 2 or 3 times as much. But I still want to be paid for what I do, just like you do.
It’s a pretty sad state affairs when people don’t understand that having something for free when you should have paid for it is wrong.
If you steal something from someone they don’t have it anymore. If I copy something of yours, you’ve still got it. Of course in some cases this is wrong, but wrong does not necessarily mean stealing.
[quote]Quote:
You ever borrowed a book from a library?
The library paid for the bookQuote:
Seen a painting at an art gallery?
The art gallery bought the paintingQuote:
Listened to a song on the radio?
The radio station paid the record companyQuote:
Did you pay the artists anything? No?
Yes, did you ? [/quote]
No, you didn’t pay the artists anything - the library/gallery/radio station did.
I photocopy some of a book for my students in class - the school still paid for the book.
I tape a song off the radio - the radio station still paid for the song.
I download a song off ‘Joe’ on the Internet - Joe still paid for the song.
The scale is different, but the logic’s the same.
If I want to own a product like a CD, I’ll buy it. If I just want to listen to some of the songs off it, I’ll download them, just like other people listen to them on the radio.
I’m a teacher. Everything my students learn in class they are quite free to reproduce for their personal use.
Again, there’s nothing wrong with downloading songs. Whole albums maybe. If I downloaded some of your brother-in-laws songs and liked them, I might just go out and buy the CD. If I didn’t download them, there would be next to no chance that I’d ever even here them, in which case there’d be no way your bro-in-law woudl see a penny of my money.
Probably not, but IMO, if you’d already seen the movie, wanted to see it again, and there were empty seats there’d be nothing immoral about it.
It’s a sad state of affairs when some people want everyone to pay for things that they should have for free. What do you think of senaking onto ‘pay beaches’ for example. I believe that access to a country’s beaches should be free to all.
Not paying for something is not always the same as stealing something.
Brian
If you copy a song from Joe, then they are getting paid from one out of two of you, you could argue that is ‘fair use’. If you download it, they are getting paid (maybe) from one of of thousands… Sure, the logic is the same, but the scale there stops it being ‘fair use’
It is matter of scale that makes all the difference. If you record a song of the radio, noone would bat an eyelid. If you record a whole CD from a friend, it starts getting debatable. If you copy a CD a thousand times and sell them from a suitcase outside Tower Records, what do you think of that ?
[quote]If I downloaded some of your brother-in-laws songs and liked them, I might just go out and buy the CD.[/quote]How many others would do this ? And how many just download as much as they can with no itention of buying anything ? As a system of try-before-you-buy it might have some merit, but how many would abuse it ?
What if the beach is private property ? Shouldn’t the owner have the right to charge entrance ? If you don’t like it, go to another one. If you don’t want to buy the CD, don’t download it.
What if I believe that education should be free for all ? Should all your students and I sneek into your classroom without paying ? I imagine you would refuse to teach if that happens. What if I believe transport should be free ? Should I go on busses without paying ? What if food should be free ? Food is a basic human right, I should get that for free surely ? It grows in the ground, it doesn’t cost anything to make.
If the owner, be it a song, a beach, a cinema or an apple, says you can only use this if you pay, and you just go ahead and use it anyway without paying, then that is wrong.
I was listening to the radio on my walkman (which I didn’t steal) and they were playing a song in English and about every 20 seconds a voice came on over the music (which didn’t reduce in volume) saying: “Property of MCA Records.” At first I thought it was part of the song, albeit a weird part. But then I realized that the station must be playing some sort of trial thing (or something).
What do you make of that?
Sorry, but I think piracy is wrong. And that means Taiwan was a bad place for me to come, but I didn’t choose Taiwan, Taiwan choose me. I will never get used to the crappy things that some Taiwanese do, I just hate them more. That goes for all the lawlessness that goes on. That does make my life hell. I don’t have much, but at least I know deep down I am a good person who always tries to do the right thing, even if others hate that.
Taiwan sucked out my last ounce of tolerance and patience years ago. Had I not been here without it being thrust down my throat everyday, maybe I could cope, as it now, I can not.
[Warning - you will have to pay 37NT to read this post]
And a library where thousands borrow the book without paying or a gallery where thousands look at the painting without paying?
[quote] If you record a song of the radio, noone would bat an eyelid.
What’s the difference between this and downloading a song then?
I’m not debating that copying a CD and selling it at a market isn’t wrong. I’m just arguing that even though some copying is clearly wrong, that does not make downloading songs for personal listening wrong.
Owner? Who owns a beach? An apple is something consumable - that’s different. I would never steal a cinema. And what happens if those people that own the song ‘Happy Birthday’ suddenly demand a fiver from anyone who ever sings it? “If the owner … says you can only use this if you pay, and you just go ahead and use it anyway without paying, then that is wrong.”[b]? No. Bullocks. They simply can’t do that?
Brian
That’ll be 37NT you owe me for reading my post. I’m the owner. I say you have to pay. [/b]
I don’t feel the need to justify myself to anyone here i make my own choices and am prepared to face any consequences. however, for the purposes of this discussion I will use my example.
I own over 2000 records of the 12 vinyl variety. I can’t bring them to Taiwan because of the costs involved. 100 peices alone weighs an awful lot and I might not be here for such a length of time to justify it. Using kazaa, Bittorrent and others, I can download some of that music to listen to on my pc or ipod while im here. I don’t make any money for it and I dont give it to other people (I guess they wouldnt share my tastes anyway), I admit that i wou7ld probably make a copy of something for a friend if they wanted , so i guess that makes me a tw*t…
I suppose that if you want to think about it in black and white terms…then I’m a thieving bar steward becasue i should get the CD versions or something…but no, I feel no guilt because I’m not going to pay for the same thing twice.
I also download tv shows that I cant see here, its just like taping Eastenders while you are out shopping…then again, perhaps Matthew would then expect me to pay for a UK TV license.
Actually, Bu Lai EN,
I’d have thought you would necessarily relinquish the right of ownership once you posted on the Forumosa, since it’s a public site. Although you may counter by saying that it’s actually private and there are rules involved (e.g. upon joining), do the rules state that you can submit a post when it’s been done solely for (your) commercial advantage? It’s not as if you’re selling something or providing a service.
Furthermore, you mentioned a “fee” of 37NT. Now, without being overly pedantic, did you mean $37NTD? Or was it something else, like NT NT NT NT, etc… (37 times).
Cheers!
There is also DC++ (DCPP), which is open-source:
sourceforge.net/projects/dcplusplus/
No need to worry about whether the latest Kazaa clone is installing spyware/adware on your machine this way – something I’ve had reason to worry about for the last few weeks, since someone installed backdoor software on my Win98 box.
Please note also my thread on Knoppix, a CD-ROM based Linux distribution. If someone breaks in and installs software (not that that’s a common issue for home users with non-Windows OSes), no worries, the next time you reboot you’ve got a clean “reinstall” off the CD-R.
i know you’re discussing something serious here, but am randomly reminded of a monty python sketch about pirates or rather Corporate Raiders… random thought.
mapo, how did you find out the kazaa clone actually installed backdoor software on you?
Apologies; in rereading what I wrote, I can see how you got that impression.
I didn’t install any file-sharing software, and certainly not Kazaa, on my machine. Someone broke in while my machine was connected to cablemodem and installed it. The dumbass might well be reading this as I type. 
Too bad, I’m not putting any credit-card or SSN info on file for him today – I use Knoppix when I want even the slightest hint of security.
My understanding is that the entire reason Kazaa-Lite exists is because Kazaa installed spyware/adware on people’s systems, and wouldn’t work unless that spyware/adware app was allowed to continue to exist – deleting it would cause Kazaa to stop functioning.
But, back to the original impetus of the thread, I had a friend install soulseek on his PC yesterday…looks great for music…but I want to share files of television shows, not music. Granted, I only began to explore soulseek…seems very complicated and I never did find any video files…
What is the best file sharing program for shows such as West Wing, Law and Order, CSI, and HBO series?
[quote=“Toe Save”]
What is the best file sharing program for shows such as West Wing, Law and Order, CSI, and HBO series?[/quote]
Quoting Southpaw from way back… I’d really recommend BitTorrent and searching novasearch.net – yes, you can download albums and stuff, but the real strength is just being able to download anything of large filesize and not relying on only a couple of people to happen to have the big file you want and stay online waiting for you to download it – it’s distributed (from the moment you start downloading, you begin uploading what you’ve already downloaded, keeping the chain going)… eats the hell out of your network, though 
Most popular shows like what you just mentioned are seeded for a good little while, but the shows that have just aired and been posted should download lightning fast if enough people are seeding/leeching.
Your mileage, of course, may vary- I’ve met a lot of people with bad luck…