I may or may not have the opportunity in the near future for formal, classroom-based, Chinese language training. However, I’m interested in getting started somehow and I’m reasonably convinced that starting with MPS is the right foundation for beginner learning. So, self-study it is for now.
I was given a book entitled “Practical Audio-Visual Chinese” with accompanying student workbook. My first impression, just paging through it, was that it didn’t seem to be a true beginner book (from zero Chinese), but rather a pre-intermediate book. It seemed to me to lack the “handholding” steps needed to slowly guide a person to the point of confidently learing and pronouncing initial, basic vocabulary. A few questions:
Is this book considered a true beginner book?
Even if this book is a good beginner book, is it the best available method of learning MPS?
Your opinion of the quality of this book?
Does it teach Chinese from a Taiwanese or mainland perspective (vocabulary, etc)?
What constitutes the “audio” component of this book/method (I don’t have it)?
That in mind, what other suggestions do you have for methods of learning MPS self-study?
As always, I appreciate all thoughts and assistance.
Because…??? Unless you’ve only ever met native Chinese speakers from Taiwan who only know MPS themselves and are completely unaware that the Hanyu Pinyin system (the internaional standard for Romanization of Mandarin Chinese) is linguistically equivalent and the heck of a lot more convenient for most Westerners to use), I can’t see why you would choose MPS over Romanization. The only reason I can see would be if you are planning on an imminent trip to Taiwan to learn Chinese.
Have you offended someone?? Just kidding, but it’s not my favorite Chinese book…
[quote=“seeker4”]
Is this book considered a true beginner book?[/quote]
By whom? Not by me.
[quote=“seeker4”]
2) Even if this book is a good beginner book, is it the best available method of learning MPS?[/quote]
I don’t believe this book is intended to teach MPS. MPS is a tool to learn Chinese, not an end in itself. Language centers in Taiwan hold separate classes on MPS, which shows that the subject is really not covered in the textbooks. Again, I can’t imagine why any native English speaker would choose MPS over Pinyin to begin Chinese, unless he was planning to be in Taiwan very soon.
[quote=“seeker4”]
3) Your opinion of the quality of this book?[/quote]
Variable. The patterns and sentences are not authentic either to Taiwanese or Mainland Chinese usage in many cases. You cannot, for example, learn a chapter and then go out into the street in Taiwan and use what you’ve learned – people will give you blank stares!
[quote=“seeker4”]
4) Does it teach Chinese from a Taiwanese or mainland perspective (vocabulary, etc)?[/quote]
They think it’s a Mainland perspective, but it ends up being neither fish nor fowl.
[quote=“seeker4”]
5) What constitutes the “audio” component of this book/method (I don’t have it)?[/quote]
There are tapes and/or videos available, I believe.
[quote=“seeker4”]
That in mind, what other suggestions do you have for methods of learning MPS self-study?[/quote]
Strongly suggest you get a book/tape combo that teaches you LITTLE (i.e., do not go for something that has 80 vocab words in the first chapter or claims to teach you Chinese in 30 days or 5 minutes or whatever) and LISTEN first, then learn to match up what you’re hearing to the Romanized forms you see. If you can get your mind around the fact that both French and English use the Latin alphabet but are pronounced differently, there is no reason why you can’t learn to use Pinyin as a tool toward accurate Mandarin. Anyone who says people who use Romanization never develop accurate accents knows nothing about Chinese teaching.
Learn a LITTLE and learn it well. Since you’re self-study, use what you already know – why learn a whole new set of symbols when you can use the alphabet you already know?? Waste of time, really…
[quote=“ironlady”][quote=“seeer4”]
3) Your opinion of the quality of this book?[/quote]
Variable. The patterns and sentences are not authentic either to Taiwanese or Mainland Chinese usage in many cases. You cannot, for example, learn a chapter and then go out into the street in Taiwan and use what you’ve learned – people will give you blank stares! [/quote]
Really? I was just about to go through this book to “refresh” my Chinese. Just to be sure, we’re talking about the book shown below, right?
Yea, there’s a fair bit of material that will confuse the locals. For example, the use of ke4 刻 as meaning a quarter of an hour…It’s not really used in taiwan. I here that it’s in use on the mainland but I’ve never been there to find out. Although I did get a lot from the book in a classroom environment- I would never recommend this for solo study.
If I were starting out again, in preparation for group classes, I would study as follows:
Use some kind of flashcard program and study aroun 80-100 basic characters- english meanings only. Many people recommend using a pda and the supermemo program for this-I learned my first hundred or so characters prior to going to japan a few years ago using a program called ‘kanji king’-a demo containing 80 characters can be easily found on the net-you will find that at this level the basic meanings of these are the same in Japanese as in Chinese.
This way, when you get to taiwan or whatever, you will be able to recognise simple signs like entrance or exit- you will recognise numbers, sizes-small, medium, and large…male and female (helpful for public toilets)…and lots more.
Some kind of listening excersizes such as pimsleur or the rosetta stone stuff (expensive if you can’t borrow a friend’s copy). This give you a start in getting to grips with what Chinese actually sounds like, along with some basic phrases-the first couple of lesson can be found on kazaa or something-if you find them useful-you can buy the set (weak disclaimer).
Find someone who knows what hanyu pinyin is and get them to spend a little time teaching you how to read and pronounce it-it took me one hour at the most to get it down-the only thing that took longer ius the use of ‘an’ when paired, and ‘v’ versus u. its-much easier (and faster) for a native speaker of European languages to get your head around than MPS. It will also make typing in Chinese a doddle. I have never studied MPS, although I have somehow learned half of it(?!?), probably from looking through kids books at work. I only use pinyin now for typing in chinese and looking up words in a dictionary- (which is put into alphabetical order, another thing you wont need to learn with pinyin) the goal is to be able to read Chinese as it is written-in characters.
This will set you up for when you get here if not already, and to start classes. Some people are bent of learning MPS, and many taiwanese will tell you that you NEED it-but YOU DON’T-you won’t be learning the language as they did. Ironlady is absoluteley right-most Taiwanese are very surprised that MPS is not even used on the mainland.
Great replies – thank you. I’d like to keep this rolling, if you all have the interest. It would benefit me.
By the way, I am already in Taiwan, but have not started formal Chinese language classes. None are imminent, though not out of the question.
For sake of this conversation, let’s assume that I decide to forgo MPS, in favor of Hanyu Pinyin. Using roman letters to learn Chinese seems MUCH easier to me, if it will work. That brings up a few questions:
There are many romanization systems. Even different ones in use in Taiwan. Unbelievably, even within one subsystem of society in Taiwan, like the MRT (subway) system, they will use multiple romanization systems (the subway car signs for “Xindian” Station versus the in-station signs for the “H s i n t i e n” Station, for example. Or Danshui vs. T a m s u i (sorry, Forumosa’s “autocorrect” feature is making this point hard to convey).
That all being the case:
a) When one of the Chinese “sh” sounds is represented in roman letters, I’ve seen both “X” and “Hs” used. Is either of those Hanyu Pinyin?
b) To what degree is Hanyu Pinyin (vs. another system) used in Taiwan for street signs, building names, etc (50%, 75%)?
c) Why is Hanyu Pinyin the best romanization system for a non-native Chinese speaker to choose to use to learn Chinese (compared to Wade-Giles, Yale, etc)?
PRONUNCIATION: I know that someone (Ironlady?) made a comment earlier about this. I’m interested in a little more detail. I only have two interests in learning MPS. One - it’s the way it’s done in Taiwan (go with the flow, etc). Two - I’ve been told that it is essential to developing (or approximating) correct pronunciation of Chinese. I care about both of these points, but # 2 the most.
a) Is there ANY reason why MPS is a superior method to Hanyu Pinyin for learning pronunciation?
b) If I learn Hanyu Pinyin only, what is going to happen if I later enroll in any formal Chinese class in Taiwan? Will I then have to learn MPS anyway?
[quote=“seeker4”]1) There are many romanization systems. Even different ones in use in Taiwan. Unbelievably, even within one subsystem of society in Taiwan, like the MRT (subway) system, they will use multiple romanization systems (the subway car signs for “Xindian” Station versus the in-station signs for the “H s i n t i e n” Station, for example. Or Danshui vs. T a m s u i (sorry, Forumosa’s “autocorrect” feature is making this point hard to convey).
[/quote]
You didn’t think you would be able to escape politics when studying Chinese, did you??
Taiwan doesn’t like Hanyu Pinyin because it’s a “Commie” system. But on the other hand, it is the accepted international standard for Romanization of Mandarin, full stop. NO ONE outside of Taiwan (who is not Taiwanese or has studied Chinese in Taiwan) knows what MPS is. It can’t conveniently be typed, etc. etc.
However, some politicians (who are NOT linguists, naturally) think Hanyu Pinyin = Communist = Bad. So they adopt the horrible Tongyong Pinyin, which is just saying, “We’ll take Pinyin, which admittedly works pretty darn well, and tweak it a bit so it looks, er, different. There! We’re not Commies!!”
I mean, should we all drive on the left side of the street just because they drive on the right side in Beijing??
“X” is the Hanyu Pinyin, “hs” is Wade-Giles. I don’t do Tongyong so I’m not sure about that. You could visit http://www.romanization.com for more details.
Yes. (That is, some. Depends on where you are. Taipei is sensibly Hanyu Pinyin – well, nearly – these days. Taipei County is not. Go figure.)
For starters, because no one USES those systems anymore. To go on, because Hanyu Pinyin is the international standard. Why would you learn something that was not widely used? Waste of your time.
I would say, use Pinyin to learn Chinese and learn MPS as you go, because that is the only way locals will be able in many cases to accurately (well, sometimes – they still get the sounds wrong with MPS sometimes!!) write down sounds for you.
Do people manage to learn French, despite the fact that – gasp! – it uses the same alphabet that English does? Doesn’t that mean we should pronounce things just like we do in English? Obviously not.
Anyone who argues that students can only gain accurate pronunciation through MPS is talking through his or her hat and knows nothing about language teaching or linguistics. Your accent will depend on how much accurate Chinese you hear (probably most important) and, to a lesser extent, what languages you already speak well (that determines which sounds you can already form without having to “think” about it, such as the Pinyin ‘v’ vowel – if you speak French well, that’s easier, for example) and how accurate the explanations your teacher can give you on how to pronounce the various sounds (and I have to say, they don’t win many prizes on this one… ) I don’t think most of them know articulatory phonetics, so they can’t really explain it.
If your teacher can read MPS and cannot read Pinyin?
[quote]
b) If I learn Hanyu Pinyin only, what is going to happen if I later enroll in any formal Chinese class in Taiwan? Will I then have to learn MPS anyway?[/quote]
Maybe. Most of the newer textbooks include Hanyu Pinyin or at least one of its cousins using the Roman alphabet, so you’ll be able to get along. And, anyway, MPS is no big deal to learn…it’s just not worth wasting your time at the beginning, IMHO. It’s like when I took oboe lessons a few years back. Everyone who plays the oboe serious makes their own reeds. But the teacher I had was very wise. He said, “Spend your time playing the oboe. Later, if you really need to, you can learn to make reeds; meanwhile, just buy them. You’ll get by fine.” Don’t “buy” the MPS until you need it; use your time to get a grounding in Chinese, which will encourage and excite you in your studies, and enrich your life in Taiwan. Knowing all the MPS symbols is unlikely to make you any happier.
(Posted at the same time as Ironlady’s detailed and helpful answer).
Seeker4, read through romanization.com/
for answers to most of your questions.
Don’t worry about the pronunciation. Whichever phonemic system you use, you still have to get used to the fact that Mandarin has some sounds which are different from the sounds of English. It’s the same when learning French, which uses more or less the same symbol set as English to represent different sounds.
About the frequently referenced street signs… it doesn’t matter much becasue a: there are no tone marks, and b: after a short time studying chinese characters and a class- you will be able to read most street signs without romanization- look around, the roads generally have names containing very basic characters.
Regarding the schools-Shi da uni’s materials have both pinyin and mps and most of the teachers will use both in class(unless you have that old dragon -gao, who refuses to learn pinyin nevermind use it as a teaching tool.
Books: there are not that many decent places to buy books here…and good books are hard to find. My favourite books are from the mainland or the west and meant that i needed to learn simplified characters. For a beginner, given the choice of material out there, i would recomendthe following:
Chinese characters for beginners (including cdrom), published by panda media and available at eslite and caves. this booki has 100 basic characters-introduction to stroke order in writing, and a cdrom that has flashcard type functions that help you learn meaning and pronounciation.
Amazing Chinese Characters-animals,again by panda-same format as above but with 100 animal characters (plus related e.g. measure words)
…thats all i can think of because the other books that I have at this level are either shite, or are better for class study.
When you’ve spent a few months in classes-come back becasue I have a fair bit of material that is great from lower intermediate level students.
Southpaw, what is lower intermediate? I finished that crappy book 1 at Shi Da and then did it again with a private teacher as I thought Shi-Da rushed through it. I want to move on, and the only option I know of is book 2 for Shi-Da. Ironlady, Southpaw any suggestions?
Just kidding, but it’s not my favorite Chinese book…
) I don’t think most of them know articulatory phonetics, so they can’t really explain it.
