What is that supposed to mean exactly?
It makes no sense.
The topic of this thread, which you started, is about the role of culture in the betelnut problem in Taiwan. You want to discuss that or not?
[quote=âVannyelâ]
Doesnât this happen already in every country that has a national health insurance schemeâŠwhether itâs alcohol, smoking, or OBESITYâŠmy contribution pays to treat your over-indulgence or dependency.[/quote]
Yes of course, which is why the government tries to cajole the population into consuming less (or quitting altogether) and put more money into the healthcare system by taxing the hell out of drinkers and smokers. Taxing the consumers before they are too sick to contribute anymore, and taking the burden off those who arenât wilfully destroying their health. Isnât there a âfat taxâ in the works in the US to pay for the drain on the medicare system that the obese impose?
[quote=âhsiadogahâ][quote=âVannyelâ]
Doesnât this happen already in every country that has a national health insurance schemeâŠwhether itâs alcohol, smoking, or OBESITYâŠmy contribution pays to treat your over-indulgence or dependency.[/quote]
Yes of course, which is why the government tries to cajole the population into consuming less (or quitting altogether) and put more money into the healthcare system by taxing the hell out of drinkers and smokers. Taxing the consumers before they are too sick to contribute anymore, and taking the burden off those who arenât wilfully destroying their health. Isnât there a âfat taxâ in the works in the US to pay for the drain on the medicare system that the obese impose?[/quote]
I think Britain and Oz are closer to a fat tax than the U.S.; however, the U.S. has declared obesity to be a disease (great step forward if you ask me - NOT! 
).
As for the taxes, itâs amazing how they justify the added tax burden but health cost continue to rise since most of that added tax revenue goes to something besides the health system. 
[quote=âVannyelâ]
As for the taxes, itâs amazing how they justify the added tax burden but health cost continue to rise since most of that added tax revenue goes to something besides the health system. [/quote]
True, but at least higher taxes lead to lower consumption and thus less strain on the health budget to begin with. The high tax on tobacco means I inhale less second-hand smoke which is a direct and tangible benefit to me. High taxes on betelnut would be of great benefit not only to the national treasury and the healthcare system, but also to the environment. Perhaps the aboriginals should be allowed to grow so much betelnut for âcultural purposesâ, but the wholesale planting of slope land for cash crop is in no small degree responsible for the flood damage that occurs every year.
[quote=âhsiadogahâ][quote=âVannyelâ]
As for the taxes, itâs amazing how they justify the added tax burden but health cost continue to rise since most of that added tax revenue goes to something besides the health system. 
[/quote]
True, but at least higher taxes lead to lower consumption and thus less strain on the health budget to begin with. The high tax on tobacco means I inhale less second-hand smoke which is a direct and tangible benefit to me.[/quote]
But this is not beneficial to society as a wholeâŠjust think of all the people who would be out of jobs if smoking was completely eliminated? All the doctors and nurses, the American Cancer Society would lose millions a year, and the U.S. government (as well as state and local governments) would lose billions in revenue. All the people dying from cancer would live longer then there would be overpopulation, food shortages, rationing, riots. The world as we know it would collapse if every bad habit people had that led to an early death was suddenly eliminated. 
Ahhh, we were talking about betelnut use in Taiwan? Iâm not talking banning the damn stuff, just taxing users to pay for the healthcare theyâll eventually need, and enforcing laws to stop them planting the stuff on slope land. Thatâs hardly likely to cause the end of civilization as we know it, though those in the business might think so. Iâm going to call it quits here, this is waaaaay OT.
Ok! I have a little more time to write here.
One way to look at the issue is by concluding betel nut chewing is detrimental to the health and well being of the people who chew it and therefore the government, which actively governs the aboriginal people, has the responsibility through a social compact to take measures ensuring indigenous peopleâs right to health. Because societies and cultures have always adapted to changing times and environmental conditions, the modern world of Taiwan is a reality that the indigenous peoples must accept and adapt to. To say the indigenous people should be denied access to modern technologies and medicines for the purpose of preserving their cultures and societies in a conceptualized âpristineâ state would only be self serving to the dominant regional culture, the same way the Japanese quarantined areas in Taiwan for their own scientific goals. Aboriginal culture in Taiwan is passing to a contemporary Taiwanese culture in which the aborigines are to be granted full status as equals, unable to compete within their traditional frameworks, they must accept outside involvement in their cultural and social affairs.
Another way to view the question may be that no culture has the right to impose its own values and mores on another. The betel nut plays, and has played a significant role in ancient and contemporary aboriginal life, concurrently serving spiritual, medicinal, social and recreational functions. Betel nut plays a vital role to many indigenous cultures on Taiwan as a device that promotes the creation and maintinence of relationships. The most superficial use of betel nut is as a ritualized offering of peace and friendship. A friendly conversation between strangers usually opens with a betel nut and removal of this social device may have unseen consequences in the way the society functions and how relationships are made and not made. Should Taiwanâs government step in and promote measures that may erode tribal practices and further attempt to assimilate indigenous people based on values that may not be congruent with tribal culture? It would be arrogant of the government to say eliminating betel chewing for aborigines would not have social and spiritual ramifications. If a change in traditions is made, it should not be the government that institutes the changes and assigns value to other cultural traditions, but rather the tribes that should be responsible for change. Without a tribal directive the Taiwanese government becomes another hegemonic force. The aborigines should decide how much betel nut is worth, not the government.
This is some of the most snobbish elitist crap Iâve ever read. I chew betelnut and so do most of my friends. You insult us with your posts about âblue truck betel nut chewers barrelling down the highwayâ is bullshit. Betel nut is entertaining and fun.
It
It
Peking, where are you coming from? can you elaborate on your critique or your idea. What is elitist and what is crap? Fill us in. If you were sleeping, this topic is about how we interperet values and looking beyond our own concepts and systems of morality to imagine other systems.
I have seen how the system works in Taiwan and it is VERY paternalistic.
I have also shared betel with aborigines and seen how it changes interpersonal relationships and that is why it struck me as an issue.
[quote=âVannyelâ]Educate or brainwash?
Is it like in the U.S., where the school teach the kids that itâs bad to smoke and they should go home and bug their parents to quit? Very effective.
[/quote]
Informing people, who might not know otherwise, that chewing betel nut can cause oral cancer should be commended. Health education saves lives, Vannyel.
Contrary to popular opinion, not everything the Taiwan government does involves a conspiracy to brainwash its citizens. 
Although the UN has no legal force and Taiwan is not a member of the UN, Taiwanâs desire to join the UN implies a willingness to comply with the resolutions and conventions of that organization. The articles below from the 1991 Convention (No. 169) concerning Indigenous and Tribal Peoples
in Independent Countries and may help give focus to this issue.
Article 5
In applying the provisions of this Convention:
(a) The social, cultural, religious and spiritual values and practices of these peoples shall be recognised and protected, and due account shall be taken of the nature of the problems which face them both as groups and as individuals;
(b) The integrity of the values, practices and institutions of these peoples shall be respected;
© Policies aimed at mitigating the difficulties experienced by these peoples in facing new conditions of life and work shall be adopted, with the participation and co-operation of the peoples affected.
Article 25
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Governments shall ensure that adequate health services are made available to the peoples concerned, or shall provide them with resources to allow them to design and deliver such services under their own responsibility and control, so that they may enjoy the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health.
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Health services shall, to the extent possible, be community-based. These services shall be planned and administered in co-operation with the peoples concerned and take into account their economic, geographic, social and cultural conditions as well as their traditional preventive care, healing practices and medicines.
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The health care system shall give preference to the training and employment of local community health workers, and focus on primary health care while maintaining strong links with other levels of health care services.
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The provision of such health services shall be co-ordinated with other social, economic and cultural measures in the country.
Is the goal of stamping out betel nut compatible with the protection of indigenous rights to culture and tradition?
It may be useful to break this down into pros and cons. Betelnuts are used in aboriginal cultures and tradition to promote friendship etc. Those are the pros. They also happen to be extremely bad for health and they have a devastating effect on the environment. I guess theyâd be counted as cons.
The question now is: how do you proceed? Is there a way we can have our betel nut cake and eat it? The answer is, no there isnât.
Is preserving the tradition of betelnuts worth the risk to health and the damage to the environment? My feeling is no it isnât.
Itâs not so much the oral cancer that bothers me, although that is pretty horrific if youâve ever seen pictures of someone with the disease, itâs the way [color=red]betelnut plantations contribute to the destruction of vast areas of countryside[/color].
Remember that poor land management affects us all, not just aboriginals.
In short, betelnuts are a fine tradition, but one whose negative effects on society as a whole far outweigh the positive.
I say let the aboriginals farm and use it for itâs original purpose. They should not be growing it on slope land for a quick (tax-free) profit. What about the negative effects the nut has upon Minnan culture? I donât see any users becoming more wealthy, attractive to the opposite sex, or more intelligent from chewing betelnut. If the non-aboriginals werenât chewing their way through tons of the stuff everyday we wouldnât be facing the current ecological problems, or seeing the social problems the trade causes.
Iâd be really interested to know - How long has betelnut been in Taiwan? Anyone know?
Brian
beginning with ditch records they write about blackened teeth. It is a common plant in SE Asia
The question may be: Does the government have the right to determine the value of culture?
The Makah tribe of Washington State USA was granted the right to hunt whales despite there being no need to continue the tradition other than cultural continuity.
In Taiwan, native people continue to remove animals and plants from national parks claiming a desire for cultural continuity.
Outsiders may not understand the value of a specific culture or understand the role traditional activities play in maintaining group identity and may be impinging on the rights of indigenous people by supposing an activity is not valuable to cultural continuity without taking great care in understanding the impact of change. There may be more at stake than health.
Betel does not have to come from farms. Climb a betel nut palm, cut down the ripe fruit and slit them open. Spread lime paste made from crushed shells and water in the cut and insert a slice of betel rootâŠthen chew. I did meet a 92 yo Amis who was grinding it up in a pestleâŠ
If everyone had to climb a palm to get nut to chew, there wouldnât be an environmental disaster. The problem is commercial farming, distribution and mass consumption. Same with human procreation. Itâs a great idea until everyone starts doing it.
The climbâŠthatâs how many people make it. A Daoo woman taught meâŠin a conversation over a betel nutâŠ