Between Iraq And A Hard Place (Part 2)

Broon Ale:

You can twist this all you want but the fact remains that Iran looked set to sweep through Basra and perhaps down to Kuwait? Saudi? in 1982-3. Where oh where were the Germans? French? and Russians during this time? Loading Saddam down with all the weapons he could carry while we sold a negligible amount in comparison. Why is the US of such interest to you on this subject given Germany, France and Russia’s far great culpability. That is like beating up the little neighborhood boy who broke your window with a carelessly thrown baseball while allowing the arson to burn your house, the rapist to have your wife and daughters and the lawyer to sue you for damages for trauma caused to the arsonist and rapist for providing them with such tempting targets.

Facts, please, Fred. We don’t need the fundamentalist-style “faith” that appears to be sustaining the Republicons in the short term… we need facts.

philly.com/mld/philly/news/n … 241.htm?1c

“[The] Iraqi bioweapons program that President Bush wants to eradicate got its start with help from Uncle Sam two decades ago, according to government records that are getting new scrutiny in light of the discussion of war against Iraq.”


“The CDC and a biological-sample company, the American Type Culture Collection, sent strains of all the germs Iraq used to make weapons, including anthrax, the bacteria that make botulinum toxin, and the germs that cause gas gangrene, the records show. Iraq also got samples of other deadly pathogens, including West Nile virus.”

Oh, and here’s one from Fox News’s site: foxnews.com/story/0,2933,73292,00.html

"Dozens of suppliers, most in Europe, the United States and Japan, provided the components and know-how Saddam Hussein needed to build an atomic bomb, according to Iraq

Was it all just PR?

cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/ … 4798.shtml

"Newly released documents show that U.S. officials, including Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, played a leading role in building up Iraq’s military in the 1980s when Iraq was using chemical weapons, a newspaper reports.

"It was Rumsfeld, now defense secretary and then a special presidential envoy, whose December 1983 meeting with Saddam Hussein led to the normalization of ties between Washington and Baghdad, according to the Washington Post. "

independent-media.tv/item.cf … 20Reported

"State Department cables and court records reveal a wealth of information on how U.S. foreign policy shifted in the 1980s to help Iraq. Virtually all of the information is in the words of key participants, including Donald Rumsfeld, now secretary of defense.

"The new information on the policy shift toward Iraq, and Rumsfeld

All of these reports are true but lack perspective.

Germany supplied 50 percent of Saddam’s nuclear, missile and chemical weapons equipment. This was followed at 8 percent for Switzerland and 5 percent for Italy and 5 percent for France.

Conventional 59 percent Russian, 13 percent French, 12 percent Chinese.

The US total for the wmds was 3.5 percent mostly supercomputers. It did supply most of the bioagents but these were never used, were a small part of Saddam’s total wmd program and ironically would have affected invading US troops to the highest degree. US was less than 1 percent for conventional weapons. We have debated this ad naseum on this forum so while your news reports were “shocking,” they were notable only given the lack of context. The tone of the reports makes it sound like Saddam was our man. That was clearly not the case. Talk to Germany, France and Russia.

For proof, go back to any of the threads on wmds where this was argued until the cows came home got fed up and went back on vacation and returned home etc.

Fred, but what about the expertise we gave them… not all the assistance came in the form of physical components. The tech transfer and military experts we sent them were key parts of their program as well.

Fair point MFGR:

But like the “shocking” revelations in these news reports, the 3.5 percent and less than 1 percent that the US supplied is much more mundane in reality. I would argue that this would carry over to the expertise and training side of things as well. Given Russia, France and Germany’s far longer and greater commitment to developing “relations” with Saddam, they are the guilty parties. Any attempts to paint the US efforts in 1982-5 but mostly 1982-3 to develop relations with Saddam taking out the context of the Iranian battlefield advantages in that year is a desperate effort to slam the US while willfully ignoring the percentage total of that aid and the context in which it was given. You can certainly feel free to argue that all you want but then you would be merely advancing a position while ignoring inconvenient facts. It would as Rascal exclaimed be cherry picking.

I do not deny that the US helped Saddam and tried to develop a relationship with him but given the context and the relatively small amounts, I don’t see that as being a valid reason for the US becoming the No. 1 lightning rod. That honor should belong to Germany, France and Russia.

Again the small amounts were only in amount. We gave him the expertise to make and use the weapons, basically issuing cordon bleus to his WMD chefs.

The sordid history of neoconservative extremism

Very well presented Spook, but a bit short on the balance I would say. Again, do you believe that Saddam was not on probation? that we could just leave him alone? that if we stopped bothering him, he would be a peaceful world citizen that had no further designs on Kuwait or Saudi Arabia? or do you think that he might have rushed to build wmds when the pressure was off and then once he had them we would be facing an invasion of Kuwait and Saudi by someone with nuclear weapons?

You seem to think that this problem only emerged when Bush became president and that somehow he chose to get us “involved” and that we were not before. You seem to think that we have the luxury of sitting behnid our borders and as long as we “leave those people alone” they will leave us alone. Remember Sept. 11? Didn’t work out that way, but I am sure that despite Osama’s long litany of woe about losing Spain and Portugal that this was really about our support for Israel which he did not mention at all in his “manifesto.”

Saudi Arabia… America’s enemy.

[quote=“fred smith”]Very well presented Spook, but a bit short on the balance I would say. Again, do you believe that Saddam was not on probation? that we could just leave him alone? that if we stopped bothering him, he would be a peaceful world citizen that had no further designs on Kuwait or Saudi Arabia? or do you think that he might have rushed to build wmds when the pressure was off and then once he had them we would be facing an invasion of Kuwait and Saudi by someone with nuclear weapons?
[/quote]

So, Fred, are you saying that you think preemptive war is a good idea, something we should do more of? If so, who should be next?

And the fact is, the UN, as corrupt and inefficient as the organization is, was keeping a lid on Saddam. Now, of course, all hell has broken lose thanks to our actions. Because of our invasion, the US is LESS safe. We have encouraged a new generation of ‘martyrs’ to take up the cause. We have made Ossama the happiest guy on earth. We played right into his plan. Halliburton is smiling too.

But, to get back to my original question, do you think preemptive war is a good thing, and if so, who should be next? How about Pakistan? Indonesia? Boston? (The IRA, a terrorist organization, is very active in Boston.)

That’s part of the Neocon doctrine.

This pre-emptive war stuff isn’t entirely new. Didn’t South Africa make long range raids into Angola and other countries (which I can’t spell) to hit terrorist camps during the Apartheid years?

“Preemptive war” is as old as human history.

Every country that’s ever invaded another rationalized it as a preemptive act of self-defense of one sort or another.

Iraq when it invaded Kuwait rationalized it as an act of self-defense against Kuwait’s “theft” of its oil resources.

“The war with Iran left Iraq in ruins. When Saddam Hussein launched his eight year war against Iran, Iraq had $40 billion in hard currency reserves. But by the end of the war, his nation was $80 billion in debt. Iraq was pressed to repay the $80 billion to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, with interest. While Iraq was distracted by its war, Kuwait had accumulated 900 square miles of Iraqi territory by advancing its border with Iraq northward. This was presented to Iraq as a fait accompli and it gave Kuwait access to the Rumaila oil field. The Kuwaiti Sheik had purchased the Santa Fe Drilling Corporation of Alhambra, California, for $2.3 billion and proceeded to use its slant drilling equipment to gain access to the Iraqi oil field.” Source: David Klein, “Mechanisms of Western Domination: A Short History of Iraq and Kuwait,” from the website of California State University, Northridge, at
csun.edu/~vcmth00m/iraqkuwait.html

The above is from a secondary source and so cannot be confidently regarded as fact. However, I first read years ago of the allegation that Kuwait was stealing Iraq’s oil in a pre-Gulf War I issue of The Petroleum Economist. The Petroleum Economist article was not simply reporting Iraq’s claim. From the perspective of expertise in the petroleum industry, it was reporting the allegation as meritorious, i.e., as probable fact. Unfortunately, I do not have access to that article at this time.

But without discussing the merits of Iraq’s 1990 case against Kuwait, which would be highly fact-intensive, involving facts that I don’t have access to, I will state that it is my belief that, had Iraq been a liberal democracy in 1990, it would have accused Kuwait of stealing its oil. In other words, regardless of whether the claim had merit or not, it was colorable, i.e., it was not outrageous. Whether this claim is right is of course debatable, but if it is right, then Iraq’s invasion could not properly be characterized as pre-emptive since the alleged wrongful acts on the part of Kuwait had already taken place.

“The Ottoman-British Agreement of 1913 recognizes Kuwait as a District under the jurisdiction of the Province of Basra. Since sovereignty over Basra has been transferred from the Ottoman state to the Iraqi state, that sovereignty has to include Kuwait under the terms of the 1913 Agreement. Iraq has not recognized any change in the status of Kuwait.” Iraqi Minister of Foreign Affairs, 1938 communication to the British Ambassador in Baghdad. Quoted in Klein, ibid. [My note: admittedly the Anglo-Ottoman Agreement of 1913 was never ratified, because the two parties went to war with each other the following year.]

I read about this claim, apparently a plausible one, in a book called Shifting Lines in the Sand: Kuwait’s Elusive Frontier with Iraq, by David H. Finnie (Harvard University Press, 1992). Surprisingly, this book sought to justify the 1990 war against Iraq while grudgingly making what seemed to me a good case in favor of Iraq’s claims to Kuwait.

“A popular uprising within Kuwait to reunify with Iraq erupted on March 10, 1939. The Kuwaiti Sheik, with British military support and ‘advisers,’ crushed the uprising, and killed or imprisoned its participants. King Ghazi of Iraq publicly demanded the release of the prisoners and warned the Sheik to end the repression of the Free Kuwaiti Movement. Ghazi ignored warnings by Britain to discontinue such public statements, and on April 5, 1939, he was found dead. It was widely assumed that he was assassinated by British agents. Faisal II was an infant at that time, and Nuri es-Said, a former officer of the Ottoman Army with British loyalties, became the de facto leader of Iraq.” Klein, ibid.

Again, without addressing the merits of Iraq’s case, which would have best been settled in some kind of neutral court (neutrality is probably no longer possible), it is my belief that, had Iraq been a liberal democracy in 1990, it would have claimed that Kuwait belonged to it. And this claim, whether held to be right or not, would have been reasonable, i.e., not outrageous or frivolous.

In other words, regardless of Saddam or his regime, definite allegations of wrongdoing were made by Iraq which, if true, any Iraqi government–whether dictatorship, monarchy, or democracy–would have been within the bounds of reason in acting on. And I cannot imagine how an attempt to take territory forcibly which one claims and which is in the hands of another can be properly characterized as pre-emptive–wrong, maybe (or maybe not), but not pre-emptive.

A book with good background about relations between Kuwait, Iraq, and other countries of the area, and Britain’s relations with them, is Kuwait and Her Neighbours, by H.R.P. Dickson (Allen & Unwin, 1956). Colonel Dickson lived among the Arabs for a great part of his life and was British Political Agent in Kuwait in the 1920s. He was also, as far as I can tell, a good guy.

Agreed.

Iraq actually had a case to make against Kuwait. I don’t think that’s well known in the U.S.

It wasn’t enough to justify invasion, murder and ransacking the country though.

At the same time it was a bit more than the simplistic “Saddam is Hitler” propaganda which fuels American foreign policy and attitudes.

The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, a “day which will live in infamy,” is a classic case of preemption.

FDR was advised in the memo below written in 1940 by a Naval Intelligence officer (McCollum) to implement policies A through H in order to goad Japan into committing an overt act of war. Shortly after item H was implemented, the Japanese attacked.

This memo was declassified in 1994. Note the statement at the bottom, "if by these means Japan could be led to commit an overt act of war . . . "

Sorry America is not the only nation to have a pre-emptive policy. Germany and France committed themselves to pre-emptive action against wmds at a treaty signed in Luxembourg in 2003. Given the amount of time necessary to prepare such a treaty, it must have been envisioned as early as November and certainly in January at a time when both nations were attacking the US position on Iraq for the dangerous precedent that pre-emptive action would set.

Finally, did the UN stop the Iraqi invasion of Iran? the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait? And what about the billions looted from the Iraq Oil for Food program? And what about the billions that flowed to Saddam to allow him to continue to repress his people? And what about the hundreds of thousands who died for lack of food and medicine because of corruption in the UN?

Right, now, I would say pre-emptive action is not possible against North Korea. Does anyone want to bomb North Korea’s nuclear facilities and take the risk that Seoul and Tokyo will get it?

I would suggest that pre-emptive action is possible against Syria and Iran and would certainly want it available in case Pakistan goes under through a coup that leaves nuclear weapons in the hands of muslim fanatics.

Finally, I still do not see Iraq as the big mess that it is painted out to be though I believe that we absolutely must take out Fallujah, public opininion be damned.

While many like to paint Iraq as now a thorough mess, what about the 30 years before Saddam was taken out? What would have happened if either of Saddam’s sons had succeeded him? Would this be stability? A stability like the one where Saddam invaded two neighboring countries and threatened the rest?

Fred, you’re arguing that U.S. policy should be based around picking on the little guy, even if there is no strategic or tactical value for the United States. In your way of thinking, it’s a brilliant idea to invade a country we all knew had no WMDs than to take any risks of antagonizing any of the rogue nations that really have WMDs.

The only lesson the rogue states take home from this is that it is better to be a completely over-the-top nuke-agreement-violatin’ country like North Korea than it is to comply even a bit with international pressure. Iran seems to have learned the lesson well, already.

Spook – if you think about it, not only did Iraq have a valid bone to pick with the Kuwaitis, we probably had no business going in there to defend a monarchy from their much-deserved whomping. What have the Kuwaitis or Saudis done for us lately??

Looks like they’ve both been serving as the right-hand guys for Saddam while giving us the ol’ stinky-winky with their left hands. 15 of the 19 9-11 hijackers did not come from Iraq.