What is the correct romanization for the Taiwanese expression BIG NOSE?
Would “ah dok ah” be appropriate?
Is this considered polite?
[quote=“Hartzell”]What is the correct romanization for the Taiwanese expression BIG NOSE?
Would “ah dok ah” be appropriate?
Is this considered polite?[/quote]
And you’ve lived in Taiwan how long, Richard? 
I get different answers when I ask different people, and have heard different theories.
I’ve heard that it’s 阿凸仔, pronounced “a tok a”, but with the influence of Mandarin (which has no final stops), it sometimes ends up ends up sounding like “a to a”. I’ve also seen it written “阿多仔”, but this may be backformation.
I think the degree of politeness depends on how it’s used. Kind of like “gringo” or “farang”; if it’s said in a relaxed, friendle way, it’s like “foreign friend”, if it’s said in an annoyed way it’s like “foreign scum”.
It depends which romanization system you use.
TLPA and Mary Knoll: a-tok-a
Taiyu Tongyong: a dok-a
Polite? Not really. Politer would be
TLPA and Mary Knoll: goa-kok-lang, goa-te-lang
Taiyu Tongyong: ghua-gok-lang, ghua-de-lang
I just use adoa, but that’s the miltown romanization.
I use ‘ah-dohk-ah’, but that’s just my own romanization. I use it as it seems to me to represent the sounds, though that sort of concept rarely occurs to the people who make romanization systems.
I was told that the front and back ‘ah’ were the same character. Can’t remember what character ‘dohk’ is supposed to be.
Polite? About as polite as ‘redskin’ or ‘yellow man’ in my book, but we (the US) do have an NFL team named the former . . .
Amoy-English Dictionary (Mary Knoll) says
[quote]A-tok-[u]
I have seen it written as follows:
阿荳仔
阿豆仔
That k must obviously be silent or spoken on a frequency inaudible to foreigners’ ears, because I’ve always heard it pronounced as “ah-doe-ah” (my phonetic English romanization; long o, ‘a’ as in ‘father’). Where do Taiwanese pronounce it as “a-doK-a”? They certainly don’t say it that way in the south of Taiwan. Can you explain what the purpose of having that silent K is in that romanization?
The k is softened but it’s still there as a kind of guttural click. i sometimes hear people say it more clearly.
Yes, the ‘k’ in Taiwanese is a ‘glottoral stop’ (if that’s the right terminolgy). It is more of an anticipated sound in the back of the throat.
Brian
Oh, so that’s what the “k” stands for.
ah-doe-(slight pause)-ah
Why is the “k” or “g” used instead of a less confusing glottal stop symbol?
[quote=“mod lang”]Oh, so that’s what the “k” stands for.
ah-doe-(slight pause)-ah
Why is the “k” or “g” used instead of a less confusing glottal stop symbol?[/quote]
there are 4 such sounds in taiwanese—they are usually represented by a final p, t, k and h. the h is even more indistinguishable. actually with the vowel sound following that k in a-dok-a you should be able to make it out fairly clearly as a kind of throaty g sound. try listening for it next time some little i mean some kids happen by and see if you can hear it. or ask someone, would you mind saying “a-dok-a” for me? they should be fine with it
[quote=“mod lang”]Oh, so that’s what the “k” stands for.
ah-doe-(slight pause)-ah
Why is the “k” or “g” used instead of a less confusing glottal stop symbol?[/quote]
You’re not hearing what they’r saying, because you’re not used to this sort of syllable structure.
the “k” is used because your when you finish saying the syllable your your tongue is in the place it would be if you were going to say “kay.” That’s how that final k differs from final p, t, and h (a simple normal glottal stop).
Just say “Hack” but instead of aspirating the k and making that crackling noise, just cut it off when your tongue is on the roof if your mouth in the K position. That’s how to make this sound.
A-tok-a
[quote=“Southpaw”]I have seen it written as follows:
阿荳仔
阿豆仔[/quote]
Neither 豆 nor 荳 have the reading Tok (according to the Taiyu Yinzidian). They are
豆 Tau7 / To7
荳 Tau7 / To7 / Lau7
The Taiwanhua Da Cidian 台灣話大辭典 gives 阿卓仔. Taiyu Yinzidian confirms that’s a valid reading of 卓, but the meanings seems odd.
The “k” is audible as a g-like sound when I hear native Taiwanese say “adogah”. It seems like “adoah” is the pronunciation of those speakers whose final stops (-p, -t, -k) have been bleached through the influence of final-stop-less Mandarin phonology.
[quote=“TaiOanKok”][quote=“mod lang”]Oh, so that’s what the “k” stands for.
ah-doe-(slight pause)-ah
Why is the “k” or “g” used instead of a less confusing glottal stop symbol?[/quote]
You’re not hearing what they’r saying, because you’re not used to this sort of syllable structure.
the “k” is used because your when you finish saying the syllable your your tongue is in the place it would be if you were going to say “kay.” That’s how that final k differs from final p, t, and h (a simple normal glottal stop).
Just say “Hack” but instead of aspirating the k and making that crackling noise, just cut it off when your tongue is on the roof if your mouth in the K position. That’s how to make this sound.
A-tok-a[/quote]
These same final stops are found in Cantonese, Thai, Korean, Vietnamese and many other Asian languages.
In Cantonese, “67” is “lok sap chat”
In Thai, “67” is “hok sip jet”
In Thai, Vietnamese and Korean, these sounds, though barely audible, are clearly represented in their spelling. The sounds are audible mainly when a contrasting sound follows them in a subsequent syllable: Cantonese “dik-si” (“taxi”); Taiwanese “lak-e-lang” (“six people”).
The confusion over the characters for ‘adoa’ is understandable.
Taiwanese as a written language is still far from standardised. It’s comparable to English at the time of Chaucer or Mallory, when writers were inconsistently taking the writing system they used for latin and trying to use it to write English - a language that was previously exclusively oral.
I’d always seen 阿凸仔, but yes, the 凸 is not read that way. I’m not sure the reasoning for this one. Using 多 or 豆 is just a sound substitution from Mandarin. We can’t really say that any of these are wrong, as there is no standard of what is ‘right’.
Brian
Why don’t Taiwanese simply use the word for ‘big’ and the word for ‘nose’? Is it some hilarious play on words?
I would suggest that tok is a variant reading of 凸. Otherwise I have a theory (admittedly, I have not asked a native speaker about this, because it is brand new):
They mean 凸, but they say 卓 which means high, erect, outstanding. This would be a rare example of Taiwanese taking the piss in a polite way.
What do you think?