Bill To Ban Dog, Cat Eating Irks Ethnic Groups

Discussion Open Forum
21

[quote=“Bu Lai En”]I don’t see why killing other animals is any better than killing dogs or cats, but a law stopping the klling of, say, just cows, although inconsistent, would at least save the cows.

Brian[/quote]

:bravo: Well said re: inconsistency. I am often confused by the argument “Well if you aren’t going to do Good Thing B, C, and D, then you shouldn’t do Good Thing A either.”

One factor that would be relevant to questions like this, however, is the extent to which one good is seen by consumers as a [color=blue]substitute[/color] for another.

Using your example of cows:

If consumers treat pork or chicken (or dog or cat meat) as a reasonably close substitute for beef, then a law stopping the killing of cows may well result in higher numbers of pigs, chickens or other animals killed. If, on the other hand, most people basically think “Well I really was in the mood for beef, but if I can’t have been than I guess I’ll have the tofu veggie plate” then this would not be an issue. My intuition is that the goods are imperfect substitutes – in other words, if cows were off limits then there would be some substitution of pork or other meat, but not 100% substitution.

Applied to cats and dogs:

If beef, pork etc. is seen as a substitute for dog or cat, then it seems likely that the proposed law would slightly increase the number of cows and pigs killed. However:

(1) I am not arguing that this is a good reason not to enact the proposed legislation, merely that it is one factor that might be considered by people who value the lives of all of these animals equally (which most of us, perhaps, do not).

(2) Even if there is substitution, the magnitude of the effect would appear to be quite small, since the quantity of dog and cat meat eaten is relatively small.

22

Well…let me admit that yes, I have eaten dog. In the PI and in VN. And you know what? It ain’t bad. Nothing great about it, but nothing bad either. I don’t think I have ever eaten cat. Maybe I have, I just cannot say yes with any certainty.
And as far as horsemeat goes, yes, I have eaten that also.
And I ate it in France. Its a fairly common item in the land of sauces and arrogance. Also eaten it in Canada.
Eaten monkey on a stick in Honduras and Guatemala. And monkey brains in Hong Kong.
The human animal is omnivorus. It needs meat the same as it needs veggies and grains. Its the way the system has evolved.
To treat it otherwise for ‘political’ or ‘self-induced moral reasons’ is as stupid as trying to turn your dog into a vegetarian…totally laughable and borderline animal abuse.

my NT$2.00

23

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]Well…let me admit that yes, I have eaten dog. In the PI and in VN. And you know what? It ain’t bad. Nothing great about it, but nothing bad either. I don’t think I have ever eaten cat. Maybe I have, I just cannot say yes with any certainty.
And as far as horsemeat goes, yes, I have eaten that also.
And I ate it in France. Its a fairly common item in the land of sauces and arrogance. Also eaten it in Canada.
Eaten monkey on a stick in Honduras and Guatemala. And monkey brains in Hong Kong.
[/quote]

[i]Anything[/i] is better than ham’n muthafuckers.* :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

*Old army joke for the uninitiated.

24

[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][i]Anything[/i] is better than ham’n muthafuckers.* :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
*Old army joke for the uninitiated.[/quote]
Thats why God created tabasco sauce.

25

I have to express disagreement with that.

Having been a strict vegetarian for the best part of thirty years, I’m as healthy and fit as anyone I know. I regularly run or row twenty kilometres without getting out of breath, haven’t seen a doctor for nearly five years, and pass for at least a decade younger than my chronological age. So how does that tally with your assertion of humans having a fundamental need for meat? Wouldn’t you expect me to be in terrible physical condition if what you asserted were even partially true? But I’m sure I would be if I hadn’t eaten any veggies or grains for such a long time!

26

[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][i]Anything[/i] is better than ham’n muthafuckers.* :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
*Old army joke for the uninitiated.[/quote]
Thats why God created tabasco sauce.

27

I have to express disagreement with that.

Having been a strict vegetarian for the best part of thirty years, I’m as healthy and fit as anyone I know. I regularly run or row twenty kilometres without getting out of breath, haven’t seen a doctor for nearly five years, and pass for at least a decade younger than my chronological age. So how does that tally with your assertion of humans having a fundamental need for meat? Wouldn’t you expect me to be in terrible physical condition if what you asserted were even partially true? But I’m sure I would be if I hadn’t eaten any veggies or grains for such a long time![/quote]

Check yer dental work. Unless you have a mouth full of grinders your have no argument on this point.

28

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]The human animal is omnivorus. It needs meat the same as it needs veggies and grains. Its the way the system has evolved.
To treat it otherwise for ‘political’ or ‘self-induced moral reasons’ is as stupid as trying to turn your dog into a vegetarian…totally laughable and borderline animal abuse.
my NT$2.00[/quote]

(1) I thought the consensus of opinion these days was that humans could eat a fully nutritious diet, and stay perfectly healthy without eating meat? I am mostly basing this on my discussions with vegetarian friends rather than on my own research, but most of these folks are relatively intelligent and well-informed people. Is this wrong? Or was your point more than humans were “meant” to eat meat, (and that the vegetarians who do not eat meat still do eat soy meat substitutes, or other sources of protein to make up for the lack of meat)?

(2) Aren’t there plenty of dogs who are vegetarians as well? I mean, aren’t there dog foods that do not use meat? Maybe not. As with Question 1, I’m not making an argument here – just asking the question.

29

I have to express disagreement with that.

Having been a strict vegetarian for the best part of thirty years, I’m as healthy and fit as anyone I know. I regularly run or row twenty kilometres without getting out of breath, haven’t seen a doctor for nearly five years, and pass for at least a decade younger than my chronological age. So how does that tally with your assertion of humans having a fundamental need for meat? Wouldn’t you expect me to be in terrible physical condition if what you asserted were even partially true? But I’m sure I would be if I hadn’t eaten any veggies or grains for such a long time![/quote]

You are able to live as a vegetarian simply because you live in a geographic location and society advanced enough to be able to provide agricultural products in sufficient quantity for you to survive. Would you be able to live as a vegetarian if you lived say…in Alaska, had no access to a supermarket and had to provide your own food?

30

Yes, indeed. I’ve heard of many cases of healthy and happy dogs that were fed an exclusively vegetarian diet.

31

Judging by some of the posts from some of Forumosa’s other staunch vegemitarians, it would appear that there is a very real problem of brain degeneration associated with veggiedom. I think people like you and Bri are anomalies. :wink:

32

[quote=“Hobbes”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]The human animal is omnivorus. It needs meat the same as it needs veggies and grains. Its the way the system has evolved.
To treat it otherwise for ‘political’ or ‘self-induced moral reasons’ is as stupid as trying to turn your dog into a vegetarian…totally laughable and borderline animal abuse.
my NT$2.00[/quote]

(1) I thought the consensus of opinion these days was that humans could eat a fully nutritious diet, and stay perfectly healthy without eating meat? I am mostly basing this on my discussions with vegetarian friends rather than on my own research, but most of these folks are relatively intelligent and well-informed people. Is this wrong? Or was your point more than humans were “meant” to eat meat, (and that the vegetarians who do not eat meat still do eat soy meat substitutes, or other sources of protein to make up for the lack of meat)?

(2) Aren’t there plenty of dogs who are vegetarians as well? I mean, aren’t there dog foods that do not use meat? Maybe not. As with Question 1, I’m not making an argument here – just asking the question.[/quote]
Hobbes -
Vegetarianism, in its many forms, is a condition enforced upon the human animal for various non nutriative reasons. Be it religious, political or whimsy.
The human animal is designed to funtion most efficiently on a dietary intake that includes meat, preferrably as raw as is tolerable to the eater. This meat contains the neccessary enzymes, both digestive and metabolic enzymes, to support the system. This should be complimented by an intake of frsh vegatles and grains in smaller proportions.
For various reasons, some groups have decided than this intake of meat, in it various forms, is not something they personally wish to do. This leads to a deficiency of various vitamins and enzymes in their diet. By supplementation of these missing elements many, but not all, continue to fire up their metabolism and physical system. However, they are doing this to defeat a self-imposed deficit.
Many vegetarians espouse their choice by saying that hey - “Look at me…I run a marathon and I am a complete vegan.” Great for them, they are obviously in a very small percentage of people who 1. run a damn marathon. 2. Are very aware of their physical body. 3. Pay attention to their body.
These people are the most likely to be aware of nutritional deficeincies ans respond by way of educating themselves to their needs and consuming needed missing nutritives.
They are admitting to the incomplete nutritional status of their choice.
Most vegetarians are people who knowingly supplement the missing nutrients. Many do not and suffer the consequences.
Can a strict vegan consume a diet which contains the nutrients they would receive if they ate meat as a part of their diet?
No. It would require supplementation to accomplish this.
Isn’t this as effective as eatiing meat? Yes, it can be. There are now vegatable based enzymes which accomplish the same metabolic, digestive and systemic functions as if one incorporated meat into their diet.
But its one hell of a hassle to do so. And it requires strict attention to ones diet and nutritional supplement consumption.
Sorry to ramble on. This is a subject that deserves more than a quick quip to explain.

33

This is deserving of a seperate answer.
I am NOT an animal nutrionist. I will happily give you the email address of a very well known one I know who would be happy to answer this query.
But ask yourself this - Is the choice to be a vegatarian one the dog makes or is it something imposed on the animal by its owner due to their personal beliefs?

If you would like Linda’s, the animal nutritionist, email addy please let me know.

34

If I were placed in such a situation, I probably wouldn’t live very long – unless I were an Eskimo or polar bear.

If I were a member of a tribe of head-hunters in a remote rainforest, I would probably have to kill and eat members of other tribes or else be killed and eaten by them.

Thank God I am living in circumstances that relieve me of any need to either kill and eat other animals or kill and eat any of my fellow human beings!

35

I’m afraid I cannot claim to be anomalous in this regard, though the degeneration might well have been worse if I’d been a meat-eater all these years.

36

If I were placed in such a situation, I probably wouldn’t live very long – unless I were an Eskimo or polar bear.[/quote]

Most of Alaska is not ice-bound. In fact, Alaska has a fairly advanced agricultural sector…but the growing season is VERY short. You would have to eat meat in addition to vegetables. But that’s why humans are referred to being omnivorous, right?

37

Then I’d be smart enough to store the grains, veggies and fruits that I could grow and gather in the growing season, and thus have plenty to feed on during the icebound months without ever needing to eat any meat.

38

[quote=“Omniloquacious”]
Then I’d be smart enough to store the grains, veggies and fruits that I could grow and gather in the growing season, and thus have plenty to feed on during the icebound months without ever needing to eat any meat.[/quote]

Spoken like a true non-farmer.

39

I have to express disagreement with that.

Having been a strict vegetarian for the best part of thirty years, I’m as healthy and fit as anyone I know. I regularly run or row twenty kilometres without getting out of breath, haven’t seen a doctor for nearly five years, and pass for at least a decade younger than my chronological age. So how does that tally with your assertion of humans having a fundamental need for meat? Wouldn’t you expect me to be in terrible physical condition if what you asserted were even partially true? But I’m sure I would be if I hadn’t eaten any veggies or grains for such a long time![/quote]

Check yer dental work. Unless you have a mouth full of grinders your have no argument on this point.[/quote]

My incisors do an excellent job of chomping off pieces of carrot, probably much better than they would tearing off shreds of meat.

They also do a wonderful job of exciting women’s nipples, which is surely the main purpose for which they were put into my mouth, is it not?

40

Name a vegatable or grain or veg/grain combination that contains and is able to delivers to the human body a complete B vitamin complex? Containing adequte amonts of B-12.
Can one do this?

This is an essential nutrient group.