At age 87, Billy Graham just keeps on rolling along and speaking his mind. [edited for clarity]
In this interview in Newsweek today, he says Jesus, who already came once as the Messiah, must come again. Why must he come again, Billy? Isn’t once enough? {edited for clarity}
NEWSWEEK: And in your world view, the answer to those problems is through the Bible.
Billy: Yes, absolutely. There is no other answer. But the Bible that we talk about is good news to the individual that his own sins are forgiven
Obviously, I pushed the wrong buttons. I did not intend to post the above, that was not my post, but since I did push the buttons by mistake, I take it all back. Billy Graham is a wise, elderly senior citizen who should be listened to by all who value freedom of thought.
Sorry for the inconvenience, Cowboy and Stalin. It was never my intention to bash religion. I believe in God myself, and more power to Mr Graham, I say.
I had meant to post on intl salvation and grace. Sorry for the mispost. Maybe the mods can take it down and throw it in the garbage where it belongs.
[quote]The vast majority of those self-identified as Christians look forward to the second coming or second advent of Jesus Christ. Across the many Christian denominations, the details of Christ’s second coming are somewhat diverse. Few dare to claim complete and authoritative interpretation of the typically symbolic and prophetic biblical sources. What is commonly accepted is that:
Jesus Christ died on the cross.
He was raised from the dead and ascended into heaven.
He is to return to judge the world and to establish the Kingdom of God,
No one knows the day or hour of Christ’s return.
[/quote]
Yep, I generally don’t think Billy Graham has much to say worth listening to, and I pretty much disagree with a lot of his interpretations of scripture and particular their application to the modern political situation.
But what he’s saying here is doctrine for most people who call themselves Christian.
There are people who believe in Christ as a teacher, but not as a divine being. Some who believe the Bible as a source of truth, but don’t believe it to be literally true. Those can call themselves Christians in the belief that they follow the teachings of Christ, but for most it requires faith that Christ was truly divine to make the claim of being Christian.
Any way, I don’t see anything objectionable in what you quoted from Graham unless you have something against mainstream Christianity.
[quote=“Cola”]At age 87, Billy Graham just keeps on rolling along and spewing the usual gibberish that has made him famous. Or infamous.
In this interview in Newsweek today, he says Jesus, who already came once as the Messiah, must come again. Why must he come again, Billy? Isn’t once enough? How can grown men be so stupid?[/quote]
I’m sure that’s not what Billy said… i.e. the pretentious questions.
[quote=“cola”]Q: And in your world view, the answer to those problems is through the Bible.
Billy: Yes, absolutely. There is no other answer. But the Bible that we talk about is good news to the individual that his own sins are forgiven
[quote=“Cola”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]So you’re an atheist…isn’t that special.
But I guess bashing Christians is “really cool” huh?
[/quote]
Cowboy, I was not bashing Christians. I am a Christian. I was bashing born again evangelicals, who in my book, are NOT Christians. Big difference.
It’s always amazing to me how hot under the collar people get over religion. Calm down!
Jesus came once. He aint coming again. That’s the truth. The rest is faith, but I am not discussing faith here.[/quote]
Posted before I saw your retorts. However, I still stand by my post above. Also I fully agree with Tainancowboy on being tired of the Christian bashing. I’m not Christ and I’m not divine - I get tired of turning the other cheek and fully intend to start bashing back.
Additionally, I was not angry at your original post, just somewhat irritated. There are several denominations of Christianity I don’t believe are correct either, but I’ll refrain from mentioning that here. Reason: Because people are free to believe what they want, and I wouldn’t want people to get up in my face over what I believe. So, as my Gran used to say, respect what other people believe even if you don’t agree or believe that yourself.
Lastly, I’m slightly puzzled. You say you too are a Christian, but you don’t believe Christ will come again? The entire New Testament is exactly about the return of Christ and the entire book of Revelations is devoted to it. Of course you’re free to believe that, but it’s a little like being a Muslim and not believing that Mohammed was a prophet of Allah…
[quote=“bismarck”]
Lastly, I’m slightly puzzled. You say you too are a Christian, but you don’t believe Christ will come again? The entire New Testament is exactly about the return of Christ and the entire book of Revelations is devoted to it. Of course you’re free to believe that, but it’s a little like being a Muslim and not believing that Mohammed was a prophet of Allah…
Anyway, I’ve had my say. Keep on keepin’ on…[/quote]
Thanks TainanCowboy for the clarification, and Maoman for the note and bismarck here.
Christ will not come again. That is ‘‘faith propaganda’’ from the church fathers after He was here and passed to that other realm. Just as the church fathers added celibacy and anti-gay clauses to the New & Improved Testament, we must remember that Jesus Himself never said He would return. He was human after all, and all humans know that they can’t come back after they are dead. Even though He was the Son of God, he was still human while here on Earth.
Of course, the fundamentalists believe all that, but I am NOT a fundamentalist, and i generally disgree with fundamentalists of all faiths, be they Muslims, Jews, Buddhists or my fellow saintly Christians.
Not all Christians believe in this second coming deal. We are a huge house, with many mansions, and that’s cool. I respect others, I just expect that as good Christians they can respect my beliefs, too. I even respect atheists,d amn those pesky little rascals who want to undo all that has been accomplished by our Lord.
[quote]The vast majority of those self-identified as Christians look forward to the second coming or second advent of Jesus Christ. Across the many Christian denominations, the details of Christ’s second coming are somewhat diverse. Few dare to claim complete and authoritative interpretation of the typically symbolic and prophetic biblical sources. What is commonly accepted is that:
Jesus Christ died on the cross.
He was raised from the dead and ascended into heaven.
He is to return to judge the world and to establish the Kingdom of God,
No one knows the day or hour of Christ’s return.
[/quote][/quote]
True. Most denominations do,but not all Christians, as individuals, believe this. Not anymore. But it’s a good theory and worthy of respect, sure.
[quote=“Josefus”]
Start with Matthew 24:27. Then 24:30. Then Mark 14:62.
Then John 14:3. (“I will come again”)
There are over 2000 references to Christ’s second coming in the Bible.[/quote]
There’s several interpretations. Some people beleive the second coming is at a different time for each person, Billy Graham beleives that Jesus’ second coming will be on a specific day. On that day, all human souls will rise from the dead together and face some sort of mass judgement.
There’s another interpretation, and that is that Jesus came again in a spiritual way at Pentecost, and that the future paradise he spoke about is here and now - it’s a paradise because we are now justified by the death of Jesus.
[quote=“hodge”][quote=“Josefus”]
Start with Matthew 24:27. Then 24:30. Then Mark 14:62.
Then John 14:3. (“I will come again”)
There are over 2000 references to Christ’s second coming in the Bible.[/quote]
There’s several interpretations. Some people beleive the second coming is at a different time for each person, Billy Graham beleives that Jesus’ second coming will be on a specific day. On that day, all human souls will rise from the dead together and face some sort of mass judgement.
There’s another interpretation, and that is that Jesus came again in a spiritual way at Pentecost, and that the future paradise he spoke about is here and now - it’s a paradise because we are now justified by the death of Jesus.
Maybe that last one is what Cola believes.[/quote]
That’s what the Gnostic Books tell us.
“The kingdom of heaven is spread before man, but he does not see it.”
Start with Matthew 24:27. Then 24:30. Then Mark 14:62.
Then John 14:3. (“I will come again”)
There are over 2000 references to Christ’s second coming in the Bible.[/quote]
But Josefus, and you’re not the Josephus from the Roman era are you, but josefus, Jesus Himself did not write any of those quotes. That was the church fathers adding that stuff after He died. Jesus Himself never said anything about coming back. He didn’t even know He was going to die that way. The entire Bible we inherited was written down as propaganda by a church bent on prosletizing new converts. We can never really know what He said. Himself.
But yes, to answer that other post, His second coming would be spiritual, not physical, and He is here already.
Wrong.
All the quotes that I used are directly attributed to Jesus.
Not to Paul, John or any of the other apostles or church fathers.
You can say “well we don’t really know that he said those things”, and you’re right.
Which is where faith comes in, which is an entirely different subject.
Wrong.
All the quotes that I used are directly attributed to Jesus.
Not to Paul, John or any of the other apostles or church fathers.
You can say “well we don’t really know that he said those things”, and you’re right.
Which is where faith comes in, which is an entirely different subject.[/quote]
I think there is enough wriggle room for people to believe that he didn’t mean what most mainstream Christians believe he means. And then the apostles could all be totally wrong about things later on.
But I find it a stretch to believe they were wrong about these things and still be telling the truth about Jesus’s life. After all, none of the writing is from Jesus directly.
Again, I can accept that a person can not believe in a second coming or even in Christ’s divinity and still make a claim of Christianity, but that certainly isn’t orthodox. So, trying to stick it to Billy Graham for affirming a belief that is completely orthodox is a bit off the mark.
What’s more, saying a belief in the second coming is a belief of “fundamentalists” is not accurate. It’s an orthodox belief. Believing there is no second coming or that Jesus is not divine is on the radical side.
I’m not knocking you. Many of the things I believe wouldn’t be considered orthodox. But if you aren’t part of the mainstream it’s kinda hard to point the finger at someone in the crowd and say, “get a load of that guy! He’s just so out there!”
Wrong.
All the quotes that I used are directly attributed to Jesus.
Not to Paul, John or any of the other apostles or church fathers.
You can say “well we don’t really know that he said those things”, and you’re right.
Which is where faith comes in, which is an entirely different subject.[/quote]
Exactly…the verses you mentioned quote Jesus directly. It is inconceivable that a Christian could read the New Testament from start to finish and not believe in Christ’s Second Coming.
Cola, may I ask which denomination you belong to? As has been pointed out, there are a multitude of Bible verses wherein Jesus himself tells us about his Return. Do you belong to a denomination that does not believe Jesus said these things? I’m curious about this. Could you please explain further?
