Bin Laden jokes among Taiwanese people

quote:
Originally posted by Iris:

Apart from that, I see Chinese people (Mainland as well as Taiwanese) as pretty self-centered and only concerned with was happens to them, their family and friends and the people they immediately rely on. I think it is a historical thing, embedded in history, culture and education, and I don’t think it will change much in the near future, especially not in Mainland China.

Iris


I find this statement highly ironic coming from someone with a Germany nationality. Might want to flip open your textbook sometime most notably 1932-1945. I guess all those Jews living in Germany weren’t citizens either?

ABCguy,

Don’t you weary at all of playing the role of indignant “debunker”? Can’t you just accept that one of the major functions of these froums is for expats to vent some of their frustration about living in Taiwanese society? Don’t you feel a bit overwhelmed by the task of setting everthing that you regard as a spurious opinion, right?

A while back, in one of these forums, someone posted a link to a site, similar to this one, that seems to be for Asian-Americans living in North America. In addition to lots of networking resouces, and informative articles, the site also has forums. These forums are full of people sharing expressions of Asian pride and soildarity, and their experiences about living in Canada and the States. As you can imagine, there are many ancedotes posted about encounters with racism and descrimination. There seems to be a lot of spleen venting going on, both constructive and not so consturctive - similar to the kinds of things we can find here at Oriented.

As a non-Asian reading through the site, do I find the postings offensive? Perhaps, sometimes - but generally, no. Do I feel compelled to lambast people for expressing their frustrations -even when they are expressed crassly, or as gross generalizations? No, I understand that theirs is an experience, and perspective that I, as a white person, can not know. I also understand, because I have a shared experience of living as a minority, and as a foreigner, that friction is inevitable, and frustrations with the host culture are part of the expat experience, regardless of the expat’s country of origin. I also understand that, no matter where you go in the world, you will find that some people can simply not be bothered to express themselves tactfully.

You seem quite self-assured in your observations about Russian culture based on the two whole months you spent there last summer. Apparently, you now feel “qualified” to enlighten us on things you observed there. I’m glad for you that you had such a great experience, and were able to get so much out of it. Now, here is a mind bender for you; Many of us have lived in Taiwan for YEARS. We speak mandarin, we have lots of Taiwanese friends, co-workers, spouses/partners, bosses, students, relatives, neighbors - we understand the people and the culture, enjoy our lives in Taiwan, but still have the kinds of grievences you’d expect for expats to have. Some of us might be guilty of expressing our feelings as culturally relativistic generalizations, but we are not ignorant. Most of us aren’t gratuitously dissmissive and dissrespectful of Taiwan, it’s people, and it’s culture. What we DO have, for those of us who don’t come from a Chinese heritage, is a perspecitve - as foreigners in Taiwan - that sometimes might seem offensive to you.

I applaude you for challenging things you think are wrong, but I also can’t help thinking that it’s kind of futile for you to, “get your knickers in a twist”, about attitudes that arent’s that much different than expats anywhere. Perhaps you should just try to deal with the fact that foreigners can be critical of aspects of Chinese society in Taiwan, and the Mainland - but that doesn’t make them irrational biggots. I don’t know how much time you have spent in Taiwan, but perhaps you also might want to consider the fact that there are probably many non-Chinese posters to these forums who are signifcantly more “qualified” than you to comment about life in Taiwan, based on their years of practical experience.

Were you in Taiwan on Sept. 11th? Were you there in the weeks following that event? I was, and most of the posters here, were, too. I’m sure many of us have anceodtes to share of the warm sympathy that we recieved from Taiwanese friends, at the same time all of us have seen and heard things that dissapointed us. This thread, to me, seemed a useful sounding board for people to share both the good and the bad. Sorry, if the negative things offend you.

quote:
Originally posted by Mwalimu: Do I feel compelled to lambast people for expressing their frustrations -even when they are expressed crassly, or as gross generalizations? No, I understand that their's is an experience, and perspective that I, as a white person, can not know.

If bringing a larger perspective to others is “lambasting”, then I suppose ABCguy24 and I are guilty. I do feel bad for all the frustration some people go through here. While it is easier and more satisfying (for the short term) to generalize the entire race as selfish, close-minded racists. I think maintaining a larger perspective will actually help with one’s long term sanity. Otherwise, one is almost doomed to become the jaded, close-minded racists that he/she loath. This applies for everyone including the Asians in other countries.

Venting, commiserating, and even ranting are all healthy and acceptable. We just don’t like it when one uses few bad example and act as an authority of culture anthropolgy.

Could you post the web address for that site up here? I think reading some of those threads could help bring in a more balanced view. Thanx.

It is incomprehensible for us to understand why anybody who would find the 911 incident funny in anyways. I’ll try to offer an example of joking about something not funny in our realm.

I’ve worked in the Middle East on different occasions. Whenever I bring up my experience in Israel, the other person would almost always make a subtle crack at the situation there. This is very different from the Bin-Laden catcalls ( unsolicited and not-subtle at all). The other example would be the type of jokes that floated around after the Space Shuttle Challenger exploded.

I’m offering these illustrations to give you examples of different human responses to tragedies.

quote:
Originally posted by Mwalimu: ABCguy,

Don’t you weary at all of playing the role of indignant “debunker”? Can’t you just accept that one of the major functions of these froums is for expats to vent some of their frustration about living in Taiwanese society? Don’t you feel a bit overwhelmed by the task of setting everthing that you regard as a spurious opinion, right?


You mean do I feel personally and morally obligated to defend against racial stereotypes on my ethnicity? You bet your ass I feel that way…you see growing up in the U.S. i’ve learned if you ignore the problem it frequently becomes worse in the end.

quote:
Originally posted by Mwalimu: ABCguy, As a non-Asian reading through the site, do I find the postings offensive? Perhaps, sometimes - but generally, no. Do I feel compelled to lambast people for expressing their frustrations -even when they are expressed crassly, or as gross generalizations? No, I understand that theirs is an experience, and perspective that I, as a white person, can not know.

Except those same opinions can be used against said ethnicity in the most virulent of ways. Generally crass stereotypes of an ethnicity are used to dehumanize and denigrate. They aren’t used to form any “constructive” opinion, history has taught us this…

quote:
Originally posted by Mwalimu: ABCguy, I also understand, because I have a shared experience of living as a minority, and as a foreigner, that friction is inevitable, and frustrations with the host culture are part of the expat experience, regardless of the expat's country of origin. I also understand that, no matter where you go in the world, you will find that some people can simply not be bothered to express themselves tactfully.

That doesn’t mean I have to clam up when someone says something obviously offensive about my ethnicity. Not confronting such incidents is in my opinion much worse.

quote:
Originally posted by Mwalimu: ABCguy, You seem quite self-assured in your observations about Russian culture based on the two whole months you spent there last summer. Apparently, you now feel "qualified" to enlighten us on things you observed there.

My comments about Russian culture did not involve huge racist generalizations. My most in depth post which was about their economic/political situation mirrors much of what has been reported through actual source material like the Wall Street Journal, Moscowtimes, or Newsweek. The posts i’ve seen here condemning all Chinese/Taiwanese as uncaring, crude, cruel, or whatever individuals are just racial generalizations. See the difference? If you can’t then I guess this whole attempt at rational discussion is a fruitless endeavor.

Anyways, i’ve given my thoughts on it and i’ll leave it at that.

quote:
Originally posted by Urbanjet:

If bringing a larger perspective to others is “lambasting”, then I suppose ABCguy24 and I are guilty. I do feel bad for all the frustration some people go through here. While it is easier and more satisfying (for the short term) to generalize the entire race as selfish, close-minded racists. I think maintaining a larger perspective will actually help with one’s long term sanity. Otherwise, one is almost doomed to become the jaded, close-minded racists that he/she loath. This applies for everyone including the Asians in other countries.

Venting, commiserating, and even ranting are all healthy and acceptable. We just don’t like it when one uses few bad example and act as an authority of culture anthropolgy.

Could you post the web address for that site up here? I think reading some of those threads could help bring in a more balanced view. Thanx.


Urbanjet,

I have been consistently impressed by the way in which you do bring a different perspective to many threads. You seem to be genuienly committed to a sensible discussion of issues. ABCguy, on the other hand, doesn’t seem to be bringing a “larger perspective” to this paritcualr thread when he writes,

quote[quote] It's amazing how someone lives in a different country for awhile and think they are fully qualified to make generalizations. How would you like it if I compared all white people to Adolf hitler or Jeffrey Dahmer? After all it's mostly white people that go around preaching race based fascism and serial killers are predominately middle aged white males.[/quote]

Your postings I enjoy, ABCguy I find to be a little too hypersensitive to anything that he percieves as anti-Chinese. For reasons stated above, I think that he is over-reacting.

As for the link… I didn’t bookmark it, unfortunately. I’ll go back through the threads and try and find it. I agree with you that reading through that site is very interesting because it shows different, yet familiar perspectives.

quote:
You mean do I feel personally and morally obligated to defend against racial stereotypes on my ethnicity? You bet your ass I feel that way..you see growing up in the U.S. i've learned if you ignore the problem it frequently becomes worse in the end.

WTF are you on about. You’re an American right (well you are the way I judge things - which is on a NON-ETHNIC baser, because I don’t believe in that shite), and you’re getting offended by people criticising Mainland Chinese society. Baitou! You, judging everything by ‘race’ makes yourself more racist than those you are flaming.

Bri

quote:
Originally posted by Bu Lai En:

WTF are you on about. You’re an American right (well you are the way I judge things - which is on a NON-ETHNIC baser, because I don’t believe in that shite), and you’re getting offended by people criticising Mainland Chinese society. Baitou! You, judging everything by ‘race’ makes yourself more racist than those you are flaming.

Bri


What is this nonsense? So let’s say you’re black and just because you’re American that you wouldn’t be offended if someone calls you a “n****r” ? Let’s use some common sense here… I may be American but that doesn’t mean i’m going to let someone insult my ethnic heritage either.

Cultural generalizations, appropriately qualified, can make for useful discussions. There are differences among cultures and in how people, in general, behave in various societies. Rational discussions toward a better understanding of these differences and their root causes are welcome here.

–the moderator

quote:
Originally posted by ABCguy24: What is this nonsense? So let's say you're black and just because you're American that you wouldn't be offended if someone calls you a "n****r" ? Let's use some common sense here.. I may be American but that doesn't mean i'm going to let someone insult my ethnic heritage either.
That isn't a very good analogy for a couple of reasons. First of all, Bu Lai En was talking about criticizing mainland Chinese society. That's not the same as calling someone a n1gger. Heck, even [i]waishengren[/i] don't think that mainland Chinese society is all that hot. My own landlord just shakes his head and sighs every time he thinks about his money-grubbing relatives in China always wheedling for a loan, a car, a washing machine, a downpayment on a house, etc. Do you think that Oprah takes it personally when someone criticizes Rwandan society? Or that your average black college freshman takes it personally when you bemoan the lack of democracy in Kenya, or the promiscuity that is spreading AIDS like wildfire across Africa? ABCguy, you need to be renamed chiponshoulderguy. It sounds like you're uncomfortable in your own skin. Maybe it ain't so, it's just that that's the way it sounds.

Personally the only joke I heard about 9/11 was some of my students (I teach big people, thank god), saying that had it happened in Taiwan they wouldn’t have lost all those firefighters because the Taiwanese fire department would have never gotten there that quickly. Not a disrespectful joke, I thought.

More recently, I went to the bank to wire some money to the States. The girl who helped me remembered me because I had come in right after September 11th to buy travelers checks for a trip back to the States. She told me that she thought that it was so patriotic that I rushed back like that. “I was so moved, so moved.”

I felt awful telling her that I had actually planned the trip for months. Oh well.

Regarding ABCguy24, I think what people are getting at is not a disagreement with your position but your approach. It’s good that you’re political. Pobably more Asian-Americans should be. However, a lot of your posts contain exagerated and ill-considered statments as well as poorly chosen analogies. Also many of your posts in the race themed threads seem to be very similar. As though the preceding posts only served to trigger a reflex rather than provoke a response. If your only purpose is to vent your spleen that’s probably fine. If you actually want to change people’s way of thinking though, it’s probably going to be ineffective.

For example, in some thread you made reference to beating the hell out of people who make racist comments. While that may convince people that not all Asian males are scrawny and effeminate, it probably leaves other prejudices intact. Indeed, the shame and resentment of having their ass whooped by a member of a despised group probably strengthens them.

Just a thought, but, again if you have a purpose beyond venting your spleen, you should consider the effect your exposition of your ideas has. Mwalimu has generally struck me as a thoughtful and intelligent guy, and not a racist. If your approach is annoying him, what are the chances it’s arousing shame and contrition in the hearts of those who’ve made racist or insensitive comments.

Reasoned argument and engagement doesn’t always work (witness Urabanjet and Mailongdong), but there really isn’t a better alternative.

I was in Mainland China, when the events of 911 happend, and I noticed a few things.

A large proportion of the Chinese Community (That I came into contact with), were shocked at the horror of the events. However, after a few days, there was a certain amount of “well if the American’s will going messing around with international affairs” mentallity.

There was a certain amount of “I told you So”.

The Bin Laden cat calling, I think is more linked to non English speaking Chinese, who can Identfy with a large world event, and hearing the word BIN LADEN on the news every day it becomes stuck in there brain. When confronted with a LaoWai, short term memory kicks in and the only common word they could share with you is “BIN LADEN”.

Much like the constant “hello” " I Love you" and would you belive “Michael Jackson” that random people throw at you every day.

As for the limited amount of sorrow and lack of respect for the dead genrally, I once saw two truck’s smash into each other at about 4.00am in Downtown Beijing. I was in a Taxi returning from Nightshift, we were bombarded with apples that one of the trucks was carrying.

Both drivers were thrown through the windrscreens and were dead. I freaked out the taxi driver by actually trying to revive one of them. (To no avail, and not to be recomended). The other 50 or so Chinese that emerged from Buildings were far more intrested in the 30,000+ apples that were blocking the road. The police arrived in 20-30 minutes and shovelled the body’s off the road. I tried to give a statement, but they were uni
ntrested.

Compare that with, When the Americans bombed the Chinese embassy in Yugoslavia. Weeks of organised hatred and bottle throwing at embassy’s which culmanated in Foriegner going round in packs.
Then Suddenly “Mourning was over” and the Beijing returned to happy harmony once again, much to the shock of the Foreign community.

I’ve yet to spend anytime getting under the skin of Taiwanese people, but of first glance they seem much more Cosmpolitan and “Human” in their approach to life.

This article might be worth a look…

Mainland reaction to Sept. 11th

Personally, I don’t care what thier reaction to it is because there were many Americans who were happy it happened.

quote:
Originally posted by Ryan P.: Personally, I don't care what thier reaction to it is because there were many Americans who were happy it happened.

Thanks once again, RyanP, for you thoughtful commentary!

Christine, one of the founders of this site, posted a link to Asian Avenue on her personal website.

I’m not sure if this is the same site that I refered to earlier in this thread, nevertheless, the forums make interesting reading. It gives some insight to the kinds of things Asian North Americans are discussing. In the fourums section, choose “Lifestyle”, and pick a thread to follow. I thought the discussion about “bananas” was pretty interesting. Bananas being asians who act “white”. Unfortunatley the site’s server is incredibly slow, so browsing the dozens of pages of postings to even that thread can be tedious.

quote:
Originally posted by Mwalimu: Christine, one of the founders of this site, posted a link to [url=http://www.asianavenue.com/]Asian Avenue[/url] on her personal website.

Dankie broer

BTW, do you know how the usage of “China” (slang for friend, mate,etc) come about in S.A.?

Urbanjet, “China” is, I believe, cockney rhyming slang for mate, as in ‘China plate’ (from London UK)

In accordance with the thread, my cents worth. I have a beard, although neither the same colour, nor length, nor shape as Bin Ladin’s. However, some Taiwanese people (even friends) thought it funny to call me Bin Ladin. I am happy to say that I share no physical resemblence whatsoever with Bin Ladin. Although insulting (at several levels!), I do not for one minute think that the comment was meant to be insulting, but was simply an insensitive, ignorant and politically incorrect joke.

quote:
Originally posted by dog: Urbanjet, "China" is, I believe, cockney rhyming slang for mate, as in 'China plate' (from London UK)

Gawdon Bennet! Ah…so nothin’ ter do wiv da coun’ry at all. Those crazy Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

quote[quote] Do you think that Oprah takes it personally when someone criticizes Rwandan society? Or that your average black college freshman takes it personally when you bemoan the lack of democracy in Kenya [/quote]

Thanks Maoman. Taht was my point exactly, and you saved me the trouble of explaining it, and spelt it out quite clearly (though probably not clearly enough for ABCguy). As a descendant of mostly British people, I don’t get offended when people criticise modern British society.

Bri