Bombing In Spain!

[quote=“they_incorporated”]It is always more painful when it is closer to home.
Imagine the terrible rage that the 10,000 families in Iraq must feel over the deaths of their civilian loved ones because of the US invasion.
Iraq Body Count
The US has enraged the hydra, and cutting off one head only serves to allow two to grow in its place.[/quote]

And imagine the pain you’d feel if my daughter and some of her friends who served in Iraq came over from Ft Bragg and stuck their Corcoran jumpboots up your ass.

[quote=“they_incorporated”]It is always more painful when it is closer to home.
Imagine the terrible rage that the 10,000 families in Iraq must feel over the deaths of their civilian loved ones because of the US invasion.
Iraq Body Count
The US has enraged the hydra, and cutting off one head only serves to allow two to grow in its place.[/quote]

What? What’s that gotta do with the bombs in Spain? S.P.A.I.N - AMERICA two different palces.

Bloody psuedo intellectual, hippy, long hair, peace on earth and all that. I’d like to bring my jump boots over. Get with the real world! It doesn’t work like that.

If the Madrid bombing proves anything, it’s not that the West has been too tough on terrorists, but rather too soft for too long!

There should be more supervision of potentially dangerous people - such as preachers at mosques - and a tougher attitude to people coming from potentially terrorist countries.
In some European countries - and I’m European - illegal migrants now just receive a polite letter asking them to leave the country. You bet that’s very persuasive.

If the bombers are Basque, it’s going to be mainly a Spanish problem - with Spain having to give more autonomy to the Basque people in order to undermine ETA’s base of support while tracking down the bombers without mercy.

If the bombers are al Qaeda or any of their minions, then it’s the whole world’s business. After New York, Bali and now this, no one has anymore excuses!

while

[quote=“they_incorporated”]It is always more painful when it is closer to home.
Imagine the terrible rage that the 10,000 families in Iraq must feel over the deaths of their civilian loved ones because of the US invasion.
Iraq Body Count
The US has enraged the hydra, and cutting off one head only serves to allow two to grow in its place.[/quote]

I’d imagine it’s similar to the rage of the 100,000 Iraqis killed by fellow Iraqis when Saddam was still in power. Spare me the phony outrage - people like you never bat an eye when tinpot dictators and terrorists murder their own countrymen, but suddenly jump up in protest whenever it happens to be Americans doing the killing. Awfully selective outrage, isn’t it?

Compared to the number of Iraqis and Afghans killed by Saddam and the Taliban, those killed by the Americans are a drop in the bucket. People like you don’t genuinely care about the suffering of the Iraqi or Afghan people, you just want to push a political agenda.

Not that I necessarily agree with what was said but if the letter is to be believed that was sent to some news agency by Al Kaida (supposingly) then it does relate in a wider sense because the letter stated they attacked Spain because it was one of the main supporters of the American led war against Iraq.

Has that been Confirmed? If so yes it does relate. LAst I heare they were still looking into ETA.

Some people just need to be wiped off the face of the earth.

There is a such thing as cultural evolution. Adapt, isolate yourself, or be eradicated… but don’t piss in my pool.

I wonder what the Muslim world thinks about Madrid.

One image that will stick in my mind after 9/11 was the video footage of Palestinians civilians – mostly kids and teenagers, but an old woman as well – jumping up and down for joy after learning of the attacks. The same thing happened in other parts of the muslim world, too. I remember one NYT article talking about the reaction at a religious school in Pakistan. People running out into the streets, cheering the murder of thousands of innocent people. Even those who did not celebrate these actions often justified it … the U.S. deserved it – how dare they support Israel! Others rationalized the attacks by pointing to a “Jewish plot” to slur the image of muslims.

I am wondering if the same people are cheering now at the suffering of Spain, or justifying this carnage … do they think the hundred of men, women and children, deserved to be blown to bits, for their government’s support of the U.S.?

[quote]A caller claiming to represent ETA telephoned the pro-Basque daily newspaper Gara and said the separatist group “has no responsibility whatsoever” for the attacks, the paper told The Associated Press. ETA often issues statements through the Basque-language paper.

The Arabic newspaper Al-Quds al-Arabi said it had received a claim of responsibility issued in the name of al-Qaida. The e-mail claim, signed by the shadowy Brigade of Abu Hafs al-Masri, was received at the newspaper’s London offices and said the brigade’s “death squad” had penetrated “one of the pillars of the crusade alliance, Spain.”

“This is part of settling old accounts with Spain, the crusader, and America’s ally in its war against Islam,” said the claim, which could not immediately be verified.

Spain had backed the U.S.-led war on Iraq despite domestic opposition, and many al-Qaida-linked terrorists have been captured in Spain or were believed to have operated from here.

The United States believes Al-Masri sometimes falsely claims to be acting on behalf of al-Qaida. The group took credit for blackouts in the United States and London last year.

apnews.myway.com/article/20040312/D81916600.html[/quote]

[quote=“klaxon”]I wonder what the Muslim world thinks about Madrid.

I am wondering if the same people are cheering now at the suffering of Spain, or justifying this carnage … do they think the hundred of men, women and children, deserved to be blown to bits, for their government’s support of the U.S.?[/quote]
The Muslim world is still pissed off at being kicked out of Spain a few hundred years ago by the ORIGINAL Crusaders. Why do you assume it was Spanish support of the U.S.'s actions that triggered the attack?

You are confused on a couple of points. Firstly, the ORIGINAL Crusaders didn’t operate in Spain, but in the other end of the Mediterranean – i.e., the Holy Lands. As for the fate of the Muslims in Spain, this happened approximately five hundred years earlier than your speculation, and was largely undertaken by local Catholic lords and hired mercenaries. Most Muslims in Spain were not “kicked out”, as you allege. Ordinary muslims were for the most part allowed to remain and practice their faith, until the Inquisition starting in the late 1400s, at which point they were forced to convert.

Also, where in my post did I “assume” who did it? My question asks what Muslims thought of the Madrid bombing. That is, regardless of who did it, what do they think? Do some see this as deserved retribution for U.S. policy in the Middle East? You seem willing to speak on Muslims’ behalf regarding the “Crusaders” in Spain, so perhaps you want to take a stab at this question, too.

The rest of this post is off topic so I would first like to say that, like the other posters, I am shocked and appalled at the bombings in Madrid.

You are confused on a couple of points. Firstly, the ORIGINAL Crusaders didn’t operate in Spain, but in the other end of the Mediterranean – i.e., the Holy Lands. As for the fate of the Muslims in Spain, this happened approximately five hundred years earlier than your speculation, and was largely undertaken by local Catholic lords and hired mercenaries. Most Muslims in Spain were not “kicked out”, as you allege. Ordinary muslims were for the most part allowed to remain and practice their faith, until the Inquisition starting in the late 1400s, at which point they were forced to convert.[/quote]
I imagine that Mapodurian was indeed referring to the late 1400s; see here;
sispain.org/english/history/catholic.html

The period immediately prior to that was in some ways a ‘golden age’ of Muslim scholarship in the sciences, medicine etc. The Muslim rulers were far more tolerant of the Jewish and Christian populations than the Christian rulers Fernando and Isabel were of the Muslims and Jews. (Under the Muslims, there were higher taxes and less-than-complete citizenship for the Christians and Jews; still that was better than the persecution suffered by religious minorities everywhere else around that time). The Catholic monarchs ushered in a new age of ignorance, and burned a lot of scientific books.

I feel it would be great if both fanatical, ill-read Muslims and those westerners who distrust and dislike the whole of Islam could look back to this period of scholarship and tolerance, and reflect. (This is something I feel in general and is not supposed to be connected with the general topic of this thread or directed to posters here.)

You might consider joining Al Qaeda. Then you can help them slaughter Shiites in Iraq.

If you follow your head instead of your gut, you’ll be in no need of forgiveness.

[quote=“Juba”]Batasuna, a banned political party connected with ETA, has denied responsibility. The Batasuna statement said the attack was probably done by muslim forces in revenge for Spain’s support of the US-UK attack on Iraq. (This was reported on TV and on the BBC’s web site. All the Spanish on-line media I can find are still blaming ETA for the bombing.)

Q&A: ETA and Basque separatism in Spain (The Guardian)
El Entorno de ETA][/quote]
Armed groups like ETA and the IRA are not in the habit of denying responsibility for their actions, so I suggest that if they deny it, that is a pretty clear indication that is was indeed done by someone else. Apart from ETA (unlikely) and islamic extremists, there is a third possibility: fascists. That may sound far fetched if you don’t know about the Bologna station bombing in 1980 that killed 85 people. Consider also Spain’s relatively recent history of right-wing dictatorship. I have posted an article suggesting that possibility in the Spanish forum.

Fascist fugitive “worked for MI6”

At the time I wrote this the Spanish authorities stated that they do not know who is responsible though this could be part of playing politics (current elections).
AFAIK the authenticity of the letter has not been confirmed and even so that groups is, by claim of most intelligence agencies, not associated with Al Kaida. As well said group has claimed responsibility for terror attacks it did not carry out (but someone else), i.e. they are not necessarily to be believed.

Latest news report a video tape was found where a member (so the person claims) states that Al Kaida claims responsibility, but again it has not been authenticated and the person has not been identified.
ETA still denies any resonsibility for the attacks.

[quote=“Rascal”]At the time I wrote this the Spanish authorities stated that they do not know who is responsible though this could be part of playing politics (current elections).

AFAIK the authenticity of the letter has not been confirmed and even so that groups is, by claim of most intelligence agencies, not associated with Al Kaida. As well said group has claimed responsibility for terror attacks it did not carry out (but someone else), i.e. they are not necessarily to be believed.

Latest news report a video tape was found where a member (so the person claims) states that Al Kaida claims responsibility, but again it has not been authenticated and the person has not been identified.[/quote]
Perhaps the links are not to your standard of “proof” (a personal appearance by bin Laden, in person in front of you, urinating on a Spanish flag while swearing on a stack of Korans that he ordered it), nor to your standard of “associated” (with a deposition that the orders went through the al Qaeda chain of command, signed by each link in front of witnesses, videotaped), but: current reports say that (1) Spain has arrested three Moroccans and two Indians (presumably Muslim Indians); (2) one of the Moroccans has been under surveillance, and (3) he has been linked to another Muslim who is currently being detained (gasp! police state!) in Spain as having had ties to the September 11th attack planners. (This is old news; it’s not like it came out whie you were typing.)

story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … ombings_13

So, while you can continue insisting that they aren’t connected, the rest of the planet seems to be making progress. :raspberry:

When 911 happened, everyone from around the world, muslims included, expressed sympathy for the victims (who were americans and foreigners alike).

Now that the Spaniards appear to have similarly suffered the same acts by AlQaida, does there seem to be the same outrage and outpouring of sympathy by the Americans.

My instinct tells me far less so. Most of them probably don’t even know where Madrid is or don’t really care.

That’s your ignorance talking, not your instinct. Take a look at the condolence board on this Spanish language site:

http://www.sispain.org/cgi/show-support?START=1&N=100.

As of now it’s still all indicative only - you may jump into conclusions and put the blame on whoever and judge them guilty, but I rather wait until more is known and the authorities make clearer statements or concrete evidence is provided.

BTW: the video is new, it was not reported at the time when I made the first post. The letter was however sent earlier but AFAIK there has been no report so far that the two (letter and video) are related and as mentioned the group which wrote the letter does not have a high credibility and that group is, according to most intelligence agencies, not related to Al Kaida - I was clearly referring to that/them only.

Care to show where I claimed the person in the video and Al Kaida are not connected or even where I insisted that they aren’t?
I provided a neutral statement/summary (in response to the earlier question) of what has been reported in the media I have read, without taking anyones side or insisting on anything. :neutral:

That the kind of “proof” you go by? :unamused: