I wouldn’t feel so guilty. It was probably your first encounter with an all in brawl. I remember when I was 16 I was in a situation where an older worker friend got beatn the living shit out of by about 15 guys. Me and a couple others did nothing. This affected me alot and caused me to get involved in gangs and do alot of beatings and recieve beatings in the name of gaining self respect and to prove to myself I was a man.
Somethimes there is nothing you can do. Possibly you did the right thing. If you had helped physically maybe you would have been knocked out and wouldn’t have been able to get the licence number that may eventually lead to an arrest.
Personally I would usually step in only because I feel the guilt is worse then the physical damage that can be done. Although sometimes you need to be skeptical on the situation. You didn’t know what the foreigners did at the time of the situation. Maybe they deserved an ass whipping. I would stand by in this case. What if the woman was his wife and she was screwing around with the guuys on the dance floor? Not that it justifies but still, Sometimes you should keep your nose out if you do not know the facts.
Just my thoughts
I was the victim of an attempted robbery in a 7/11 in Hsichih back in 1998. The guy demanded money and when I refused hit me over the head twice with a Taiwan Beer bottle. (I’m lucky…I have a hard head). The police were called 4 or 5 times in the space of an hour and it wasn’t until I started screaming about Chen Ching-hsing and a gun that they came. The talked to several locals and said “Follow us”. They knew who the guy was, went to his apartment, went inside and beat the shit out of him. They then came back out and said “OK?”. I said I wanted to press charges so we went to the staion where I found out No, I don’t press charges…I have to get a lawyer and sue the SOB. The cops said the max he would get would be 3 months and he could pay 60-70NY per day and not have to serve time. I thought about the cost of a lawyer and said screw it. The cops said the next time I should beat the shit out of him. The are the same guys who arrested me for beating the shit out of a burglar I caught in my house back in 1991. Go figure. But that is another tale. 
[quote=“Michael J Botti”]Point taken…But these folks had no choice for flight from the sounds of it. Also, the priority should have been protecting the girl, no matter what your feelings about fighting may be.
In 1992, A gangster punk hit me over the head with a brick. Despite filling my shoes completely with blood, I finished the job at hand and took the stitches afterwards…I myself would choose flight over fight if flight presents itself, but what happens when it doesn’t? Do we sit back and allow ourselves to be subject to a whipping?..Maybe I’m too much the simpleton but it seems to me if you got no choice, take a couple with you. They got their asses stomped anyway, and there can’t be anything more satisfying to a gangster punk here than taking down a foreigner. The little bastards will be gloating over this for weeks.
I’m not a badass or a tough guy…But if you throw the first blow or hit a woman in front of me, there will be a fight. Like I said, I’m an old fashioned simpleton, but I believe and endorse the right to protect oneself if all other options have been exhuasted. For the three times I’ve had to do it in Taiwan, the fear is mostly just before it starts, the unknown factor. Once it starts, it’s not that bad, you either get your ass kicked, or kick somebody elses…It never really hurts until the next day anyway.
And ski, I agree with you 100%. Most locals won’t hassle a foreigner that potrays an attitude of ‘mess with me at your peril’. My advice to the rest is to stay out of bars frequented by gangsters. I play in pool tournaments with gangsters every week and don’t get hassled by anyone.
Funny no one seems to share my indignation about the girl getting whacked with a baseball bat. Maybe attitudes really have changed in the west. Maybe men don’t stop and help women anymore when their car breaks down or when they are hassled by unsavory characters. I haven’t been home in a looong time (ten years), have attitudes changed that much?
Is the white knight dead?[/quote]
I agree with you 100% and have personally intervened on several occassions here in taiwan, in defense of women and old people.
I too would rather run, if possible. But in a fight, there is no choice… and there is no choice either, IMO, when a woman or old person is being attacked.
I am a little guy, and not particularly tough. But I have won many fights that I should have lost (cuz the other guy was bigger, stronger and or tougher)… but in a fight I have always been able to be mean. Really nasty, no goddamn rules mean. And that will win you quite a few fights… and often keep you out of others.
Danny,
Mr. Jones was right. You don’t need to feel so guilty. You’ve done more than most would do. Good on you for putting yourself forward as a witness!!
And to think that Tigerman is talking about changing his name. 
No way!
Danny, if you think I’m on your case than please accept my apologies…And I do respect the fact that you’re willing to help.
What are the extent of the girls injuries? And is she planning to stay after her unfortunate incident. You said there were other foreigners there and not one of them stepped in to assist the woman?..Unf#%&ing believable!
If this guy that took out the girl shows up at the hospital and starts making threats, give me a call…PLEASE! I’d love to meet him and tell him he can bring his bat and a couple of friends too… :bluemad:
Tigerman, PLEASE don’t change your name!.. 
But nobody with the exception of Tigerman has answered my question…Is chivalry dead?
Why do you keep going on about the woman? Was she the only one who got hurt? You’re only asking about HER injuries.
To be honest, I usually try to stay away from guys like you. I know you mean well, but honestly, this kind of blatant sexism makes me sick.
I guess some guys get off on the whole patronizing saving-the-damsel-in-distress thing, but really, if you would not do the same for a guy that’s pretty scary. It’s like the whole Lynndie England fiasco…how many people even know the names of the guys who were involved. But because she’s a woman, she’s supposed to know better, right?
End of rant. 
On the whole, I like Taiwan, and the locals. Far less aggresive than the brandy-swilling idiots in my country (SA), who actively seek out a confrontation.
But I’m in a mood. Whether it be a foreigner or a local - if you gonna step on my toes, just cuz you want some trouble, I’m gonna pick up the hardest, bluntest object in my vicinty (beer bottle, chair, knuckles) and give you the soundest pounding I’m able to. One - to set an example to you and your brethren, two - to knock the nonsense outt you. And I will not feel bad about it.
People go on about their fear of the gangster mongrels here. Stand up to them, fight them if need be. I aint one to be intimidated. Show fear, and they prey.
Two navels,
Thanks, you finally answered my question for me. Instead of trying to be a gentleman as I was taught, I am now a sexist? Thank you and yes if that is your definition of a sexist, I guess guilty as charged…You can puke now if you want to…
Sexist or no, I can’t think of any reason as a man to smack a woman(or anyone else for that matter) upside the head with a baseball bat…
I don’t get off on anything of the sort…It was simply the way I was raised. A man doesn’t raise a hand to a woman…Period.
For the guys, I can only say that it is unfortunate but to me it’s not really the same thing. Hitting a woman is inexcusable and would have warranted the use of force had I seen it in person. A man on the other hand, has the right and somewhat of an obligation to defend himself against an attack of this nature…And yes, I would have stepped in if I saw that the odds were uneven.
A sexist?..Damn that hurts more than getting sucker-punched in a bar! :s
I think I would not so much as say I would standup for women. I would standup for the weak and innoccent. Also I think it is easier said in a hypothetical situation what you would do or done differently to another. But being in the real situation and doing it is another.
I try not to judge people to harshly, as far as I am concerned do what ever you can live with and not feel ashamed.
I can understand wanting to stand up for women. But I am 230lbs and have been thrown on my arse, with my elbow shoved up it, by ladies half my weight. Size or sex doesn’t matter, it is technique.
I am sorry to hear what happened at the P&W. The one in Kaohsiung is known for that kind of stuff also.
It will be in APPLE DAILY tomorrow morning. Photos and all.
Durin’s Bane [quote]Size or sex doesn’t matter, it is technique. [/quote]
Then why do martial arts have sex/weight divisions?
Obviously when your talking about trained Ma and athletes sex and weight make a difference, But if you put a trained/experienced women against an untrained man the story could be different same goes for men. From my experience it is the fight in the dog not the dog in the fight. Just because a guy weighs more and is stronger than his opponent does not mean he will win. To the contrary most big guys, myself being smaller than getting bigger relize that you have a less chance of getting in a fight when your bigger so there is less chance of having any experience in a physical confrontation.
At the end of the day fighting proves nothing and usually is just a pissing contest 
When one fights in self defense, it isn’t about proving anything.
Then why do martial arts have sex/weight divisions?[/quote]
Well, of course size, weight and sex can be an advantage or disadvantage. I think DB was probably referring to the fact that in a real fight, where there are no referees, a smaller person can defeat a larger person… i.e., size and sex are not the only determiners in a real fight.
I’ve said this before… the great predators of the sea and land do not attempt to take on those which they believe might harm them. Great Whites and Lions always target the sick, hurt, young or old.
You get in a fight, you should be looking to hurt the other person… and hurt them badly. Once a bully knows you are intent on harming him badly, they almost always back off.
Tigerman,
In Taiwan, if someone comes at you with a bat and you’re unarmed and you rope them and kill them, what should your next step be?
This is a horrible thing to happen. It especially hits home since I live so close to that pub.
Makes me wonder just how safe this neighbourhood is and if it’s safe for my wife to be out walking with our daughter. I mean Hsinchu is not the safest place to walk anyway since people drive with utter disregard for anyone , even themselves. But I never considered it a place to be concerned about getting mugged or robbed. If something ever happened to my wife or my baby and the police showed their usual incompetence, I’m not sure what I would do.
I’ve lived in Taiwan for 6 years now but I at a loss. What do gangsters look like?
The same thing happened in Taichung about 4 or 5 months ago.The name of the place was Soundgarden or something,Im not sure.
My guess is that the violence last night was not random, but that there was some provocation, maybe due to miscues or miscommunication or cross cultural misunderstands, or fuzzy drunkenness, amphetamine highs, but there must have been ‘‘something’’ to set it off.
We will find out tomorrow when Apple Daily dishes the dirt. It always a girl, some trouble with a girl. Watch!
What is this “apply daily” many of you speak of?
and…
All us foreign devils should form our own mafia and…you know. 