Brazillian ju jitsu wake up and smell the coffee

[quote]And what are the differences between aiki-jujitsu and jujitsu?[/quote] I once watched an aikijitsu class; I don’t know if that’s the same thing or not. It was interesting. There was a heavy emphasis on solemnity, formality, perfect posture, and absolute correctness in technique. The sensei had a very condescending view of Aikido; he called it a heavily watered-down and impractical version of aikijutsu.

Now I don’t know about that because what he was teaching actually also seemed rather impractical to me, but anyway it was still very interesting - and that guy, whose name was Frederick J. Lovret, has written an awesome book called The Way and the Power: Secrets of Japanese Strategy which is among my favorite books on martial arts.

[quote]I think Fenlander and Andy are emphasizing two non-mutually exclusive points: 1) the importance of real-life experience in determining combat proficiency and 2) the importance of using a methodical, emperically-developed method of getting in regular training without having to risk one’s life every time one trains, as one would if one used only the street as one’s ‘dojo’!

The above quote by Vay sums a lot of it up. Most people don’t want to risk one’s life to train, but a few did and do use this method ! Some use both empiral and real life experience. 99% do not use real life experience which is wise, but be aware there are the 1% that use both real life and empirical on a regular basis!

Trigolov yes you are right again, the dog brothers are awesome![/quote]

To answer the question about BJJ (Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu) in comparison to traditional JJJ (Japanese Jiu-Jitsu), I actually trained in JJJ for about a year and was fortunate to have trained with some exceptional instructors that showed me the inner workings of Kodenkan (DanZan Ryu) Jiu-Jitsu.

JJJ is actually a pretty well-rounded system that addresses the 4 Ranges of combat quite well. We learned basic kickboxing in regards to punching and kicking as well as 10-15 Judo throws with the GI if you could not strike with your opponent. The ground was the main emphasis and we spent a lot of time working chokes, armbars and some leg locks. The ground work is very basic in comparison to BJJ, but it seems more geared towards self-defense than becoming a World Champion in grappling. They also threw in A LOT of self-defense techniques from the standing position such as headlock escapes and wrist locks that were similar to Aikido.

BJJ is almost strictly a ground fighting system and about 90% of a typical practice session in America/Brazil will be on the ground. Most instructors don’t teach the self-defense aspect anymore and there is almost never any striking techniques taught in a BJJ school such as the Gracies or Machados. If you want to get very proficient in one aspect of fighting, then BJJ will help you do that. If you train a solid 1-year in BJJ, it is very unlikely that you will come across someone on the streets with better ground skills than you.

That being said, the main difference would be that JJJ is more of a “Jack-of-all-trades, master of none” type of thing and BJJ is more of a technical school that trains you to be a pro in one discipline. I had a great time in JJJ and if you find a good school, they will teach you a lot of ways to defend yourself. That being said, the level of the groundfighting at the JJJ school was no where near the level of the BJJ schools, but definitely the average JJJ student has a better understanding of striking than the average BJJ student.

The modern BJJ fighters realize this and spend their time training at several different schools in the various arts. Most serious BJJ fighters will train BJJ to be the best on the ground, then go to a good boxing gym to get good at striking and train with some wrestlers to become proficient in grappling. The modern BJJ guy (we don’t like the Gracies) don’t want to learn everything from one instructor. We are like college students, we want a PhD in Physics to be our science teacher and a PhD in English to be our writing instructor and so on.

As for the attitude of the Japanese towards BJJ; they LOVE it and the BJJ schools in Japan has grown exponentially over the past 5 years. The Japanese are very technical people and they really enjoy the groundfighting and have made their own kind of BJJ where they have invented exotic reversals from the bottom position using little to no strength at all. I really enjoy training BJJ in Japan as many of them have Judo or Wrestling backgrounds and they have a great work ethic towards training and improving.

Hope I answered some of your questions and was able to help!

Sincerely,
Andy Wang
Taiwan Jiu-Jitsu

THAT’S A GREAT THREAD, WITH GOOD, WITTY WRITE-UPS FROM BOTH FENLANDER AND ANDY.

I’d like to point out a few things however.

I am a bit tired of this appellation “BJJ” that always bears the “Gracie’s” flag because it was made popular by the Gracie’s. BJJ is simply JJ from Brazil; but what’s the difference? You can find exactly the same thing and the same techniques in Japan and in any serious jujitsu school in the world.

On the other hand, it’s quite true that most jujitsus are quite poor in standing fight (boxing/kicking) and that most fighters now train in several disciplines. A common and pretty good mix now is Thai+Jujitsu. You don’t see a fighter cooming up to a UFC or PRIDE with only BJJ in his pocket anymore. ALL of the WINNERS are EXCELLENT strikers. The best example I can think of is this VANDERLEE who trashed everybody - including Sakuraba. This guy has the guts, the technique (both standing and on the ground) the speed, the stamina and the power, and an amazing conditionning. Another typical school is MILLETICH; these guys are poor on the ground, but they’re good boxers, and they win.
So Andy’s right somehow in his approach, teaching both BJJ and striking.

SPARRING: It is 100% true that you cannot be a fighter if you do not spar. However, sparring with protections often means heavy sparring in which opponents can improve everything except their technique. Only controlled sparring allows for the use of a complete panel of different techniques. So I am convinced that both forms should be practiced.

So much learning and sparring seems all good for a fight on a ring or mat. But never forget that on a mat there are ALWAYS limitations and a kind of fairplay that one won’t find on the streets. What I’m saying here is that “no rules” means that on the streets - especially in big cities’ subburbs - people are wild beasts and they don’t give a damn about rules. And as a matter of fact, most people (and coaches) in dojos have never had even a single fight on the street. And the guy - like this kung fu guy Andy talks about - who thinks he’s gonna win with techniques is a pure dreamer!

I have had many real fights on the street (when I was younger though :slight_smile: ); only once did I go to the ground. And, apart from the occasional bar brawl, it was always weird and involved totally unexpected actions from either sides that had nothing to do with martial arts…
So beware: the winner on the street is usually the ugliest one or the one with more people on his side; it’s as simple as that. So a good training combination for the streets would be: 50%technique and 50%running…

On the ring is a bit different; however I still have to see a champ coming out of a cozy, lazy and wealthy family; most winners have had it quite tough in their youth.

Godfrey
www.budoasia.com

People commonly make the mistake that the UFC proved BJJ was the best; what the UFC actually proved was you have to be well rounded to be competent in a self-defense situation.

Where the Gracies and early Brazilians went wrong was they thought nobody would ever learn enough BJJ to catch up to them. They thought that BJJ would last forever and their evolution stopped at that precise moment and it was only a matter of time before they were going to be passed up by the other fighters.

Why? While the Gracies were basking in their early glory, the other athletes were learning BJJ and making their own specialty even better. The Vanderlei Silvas (who earned a BJJ Black Belt from Carlos Gracie, Jr.) and CroCops (who brought from Brazil his own personal BJJ coach, Fabricio Werdum) were learning new tricks and the Gracies were not. It was only a matter of time before the Gracies were outdated, and that’s exactly what happened. If the Gracies want to become competitive again, they MUST learn to wrestle and strike.

I actually agree that the Miletich Team in the USA is poor on the ground; many of the fighters on that team are ex-college wrestlers that learned how to box and have not spent enough time in BJJ/groundfighting. Why? Their 3 best fighters have all lost by submissions recently. Matt Hughes, who was thought to be unbeatable, lost his UFC Championship Belt by rear choke to BJ Penn (BJJ Blackbelt from Hawaii, USA), Tim Sylvia was armbarred (and got a broken arm that put him out of action for a year) in a UFC Heavyweight Championship match by Frank Mir (BJJ Blackbelt from Las Vegas, USA) and most recently Robbie Lawler, was submitted by Evan Tanner via triangle choke at UFC 49. The Miletich guys are excellent fighters and now they have to go back to the drawing board, which they will. After losing 2 Championship belts by submission this past year, I’m sure they will be doing A LOT of groundwork this year. People have caught up with them, they know how to stop their takedowns and how to take them to the ground. Now, the Miletich guys have to evolve, learn more BJJ to keep the fighting where they want it, on the feet or them on top.

The point? Again, there is NO perfect or complete style, just like their is NO complete or perfect academic subject and it’s important to seek out quality instruction in several areas to become truly competent and if you want to stay ahead of the game.

I’ll post a link to a couple of websites in the next couple of days where they have tons of live streetfighting videos and you can see how important it is to be able to protect yourself on the stand-up AND clinch/ground.

Actually, you guys can try www.skoopy.com
The site looks like a porno site but if you click on the VIDEO link on top of the page it will show you a list of various live recorded scenes. Click on anything that says fight or brawl and you’ll see some amazing streetfights.

Enjoy!

Sincerely,
Andy Wang
Taiwan Jiu-Jitsu

Andy,
I just found this great source of street fight videos. Follow this link
cityrag.blogs.com/main/2004/08/i … 0001989417
the posting street fight video motherload should show up.

After watching some of those clips I think my “Keep my ass out of trouble technique” would kick all your asses :laughing: .

Scott,

Thanks for providing that link; those fights are brutal! I only watched the first link “Bareknuckle Streetfights” and it’s good for any serious martial artist to watch. 100% of the fights start on the feet, 80% go to the ground. Conclusion? You have to well rounded man!

Andy Wang
Taiwan Jiu-Jitsu

“When confronted with violence, there is a simple and preferred method: run away.”

Shaolin teaching

Neville Chamberlin also followed that philosophy. In some cases run away yes. Other cases be brave and stand your ground. For example, a woman is being attacked and dragged off into a car. What do you do ? I would intervene ! One guy is getting killed by three others what would you do ? I would help ! An elderly couple getting mugged. I would help. A persistent bully that bullies others who cannot run away, I would help. Our societies are going to pieces precisely because most people do run away and don’t help others. Why ? Well often out of fear but mostly because people are selfish. Personally i won’t run away and be a cur and yes I have intervened many a time (and i am still alive despite being hit with a hammer and a crow bar and kicked in the head by 8 guys) In my opinion zodiac if you are trained in Shaolin martial arts as your name implies i suggest you should also have been trained to help others ! Perhaps i am wrong but i thought the shaolin monks were selfless warriors! So if you wish to run and be afraid fine but why encourage others to run away from all violence, in some situations yes run in others have some gameness and stand up ! You are a martial artist, protect the weak and bullied ! JMO

Neville Chamberlain in a forum on martial arts!

Brilliant!

In one fell swoop, someone has managed to imply (that’s imply, not infer) that I am a coward, a cur, and that I am a poser that doesn’t really know anything about martial arts.

Now I don’t want to turn this into a personal argument (which it seems to be in danger of becoming) but I do want to set the record straight.

So to set the record straight:

I never said nor implied that I had studied Shaolin kung fu. Other systems, yes, but not Shaolin. But I have learned about Shaolin.

And, anyone who knew anything about Shaolin would recognize my earlier quote:

“When confronted with violence, there is a simple and preferred method… run away.”

as part of the centuries-old Shaolin Creed, which continues…

“Learn the ways to preserve rather than destroy. Avoid rather than check; check rather than hurt; hurt rather than maim; maim rather than kill; for all life is precious, nor can any be replaced.”

Now were the Shaolin (real Shaolin, I mean) cowards or curs?

And, for the record, there was another Teacher who said:

“When someone strikes you on the cheek, turn to him the other cheek, also.”

That same Teacher also said:

“Whoever lives by the sword shall die by the sword.”

Now was that Teacher a coward or a cur? Or was he someone who would lay down his life for his friends?

And what about those who take those teachings seriously? Are they cowards or curs?

I am by no means a pacifist, neither am I a kung fu expert.

But, as my sensei often said:

“Best defense… not be there.”

I think the other teachers on this forum might agree.

Still, If you must know, I have sometimes found myself in harm’s way or placed myself in harm’s way in order to protect someone else.

Given that I have never been much bigger than the classic Charles Atlas 98-pound weakling, putting myself in harm’s way must because of either:

a) I have a profound sense of justice and feel compelled to help others;
b) I have a profound death wish and feel compelled to rescue damsels in distress.

Good thing for me I now know how to block!

But as the Shaolin Creed points out, you don’t always have to bash somebody to protect yourself or someone else.

Mahatma Gandhi was neither a kung fu expert nor a Christian. But he was often confronted with violence and took the Teacher seriously.

I think Gandhi said it best when he said:

“I am prepared to die. But there is no cause for which I am prepared to kill.”

The whole Shaolin Temple myth is-----a myth invented in the early 1900s by a Chinese journalist. I do not mention that to give folks a hard time but there is tons of utterly false (and fairly absurd) stories floating around about the history of Chinese martial arts (the Shaolin Temple and the Wudang Temple being the two chief lines of horseshit). The “modern” Shaolin Temple (owned and operated by the Peoples Liberation Army by the way!) is one of the greatest boondoggles of modern martial arts. They seperate more rubes from their hard earned dollars than Count Dante ever did.

My wife and I’s forthcoming book on the history of Chinese martial arts training manuals discusses how it is time for Chinese martial arts history to seperate itself from fairy tales and horseshit.

take care
Mad Monk BodhiBrian
Chief Financial Officer, San Chung Shaolin Temple of the Tao

Um, I think this comes from The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, not the Shaolin Temple! 0r maybe Steven Donaldson ‘borrowed’ it.

Seriously though, Geoff Thompson - whose writings I’ve often recommended on the subject of self-protection and street-strategy - always emphasizes ‘pre-emptive avoidance’ (IE, spot the situation before it occurs or better yet don’t go where such a situation will occur) as the best method of self-protection. That having failed, hi-tailing it is his second choice. Talking your way out of it comes in third, and fighting is dead last.

“Don’t bring gung fu to a gunfight”

words to live by.

Brian -
Does the changing of wing chun into a form of state sponsored choreography from a fighting art get mentioned in your coming book?
This seperation, occuring during the mid 70’s I believe, might well have contributed to the rise in ‘legendary stories’ of the ‘good old days’ and the super-heroes accredited with "mystical prowess.

Um, I think this comes from The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, not the Shaolin Temple! 0r maybe Steven Donaldson ‘borrowed’ it. .[/quote]

I read The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant and The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant but I don’t remember this particular quote in any of those six books.

But I don’t doubt that Stephen R. Donaldson might have borrowed it (he does quite a bit of “borrowing” sometimes) and attributed it to his Bloodguard. After all, they did sound rather Shaolin, don’t you think?

[quote=“Vay”]
Seriously though, Geoff Thompson - whose writings I’ve often recommended on the subject of self-protection and street-strategy - always emphasizes ‘pre-emptive avoidance’ (IE, spot the situation before it occurs or better yet don’t go where such a situation will occur) as the best method of self-protection. That having failed, hi-tailing it is his second choice. Talking your way out of it comes in third, and fighting is dead last.[/quote]

As I said:

“Best defense… not be there.”

“When confronted with violence, there is a simple and preferred method: run away.”

Myths and Logic of Shaolin Kung Fu notwithstanding, these two make sense.

[quote=“brianlkennedy”]The whole Shaolin Temple myth is-----a myth invented in the early 1900s by a Chinese journalist. I do not mention that to give folks a hard time but there is tons of utterly false (and fairly absurd) stories floating around about the history of Chinese martial arts (the Shaolin Temple and the Wudang Temple being the two chief lines of horseshit). The “modern” Shaolin Temple (owned and operated by the Peoples Liberation Army by the way!) is one of the greatest boondoggles of modern martial arts. They separate more rubes from their hard earned dollars than Count Dante ever did.

My wife and I’s forthcoming book on the history of Chinese martial arts training manuals discusses how it is time for Chinese martial arts history to separate itself from fairy tales and horseshit.

take care
Mad Monk BodhiBrian
Chief Financial Officer, San Chung Shaolin Temple of the Tao[/quote]

Brian

I would be most interested to read your book.

I wonder how it would compare with Little Buddha’s work in progress?

Note that in my earlier post I said the real Shaolin, by which I meant to imply that the current occupants of that hallowed ground are more circus performers than martial artists; and the cell-phone carrying “abbot” is no more spiritual or self-less than any other snake-oil salesman with a MasterCard account.

So I agree with the need to separate faction from fiction and history from horse shit – and not only with “traditional” Chinese arts.

But we can start with the Shaolin and Wudang temples and move on to the legendary beginnings of Five Animals, XingYi, BaGua and Wing Chun.

From there we can go on to apply the historical-critical method to Confucius (K’ung-fu-tzu, Kongfuzi), Lao Tzu (Lao Tse, Lao Tze or Lao Zi) and Buddha.
Using this proven and scientific method, we will discover that these great teachers probably didn’t write their books at all and maybe never even said what they said.

That would put the cat among the pigeons, now wouldn’t it?

But iconoclasm aside, behind every myth there is a kerygma as well as didache; and – unless someone can show otherwise, I do believe that the creed I quoted is part of the Shaolin didache.

And even if it isn’t, it should have been.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]“Don’t bring gung fu to a gunfight”

words to live by.[/quote]

I couldn’t agree more. No amount of “Iron Shirt” or Iron Palm will stop bullets.
Nuff said.

Off topic I know, but being an iconoclast, I couldn’t help but notice the icon in your “signature.”

I have no doubt that you are a man with standards, but this icon reminds me of another standard: One that usually had the letters SPQR emblazoned on it.

Now if your standard had SPQR on it, would it be Senatus Populusque Romanus

or Sono pazzi questi Romani? :wink:

[quote]I read The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant and The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant but I don’t remember this particular quote in any of those six books.
[/quote]

It was the creed of the soldiers (the Warmark, I think?) who protected the Lords’ keep. As a matter of fact, the Bloodguard specifically stated that this creed did not apply to them; their creed was more like that of Randy the Tool Guy: 'get ‘er done’.

Incidentally, did you know Steven Donaldson’s starting a third Chronicles of Thomas Covenant? Odd, considering that dude died at the end of the second chronicles! His post-T.C. books must not be selling well.

[quote=“Vay”][quote]I read The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant and The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant but I don’t remember this particular quote in any of those six books.
[/quote]

It was the creed of the soldiers (the Warmark, I think?) who protected the Lords’ keep. As a matter of fact, the Bloodguard specifically stated that this creed did not apply to them; their creed was more like that of Randy the Tool Guy: 'get ‘er done’.[/quote]

Well, it was 20 years ago that I read the books, so you’ll forgive me if I don’t remember this particular detail emerging from the pen of Stephen R. Donaldson.

I’m not exactly a genius when it comes to Donaldson Trivial Pursuit. Im’m more of a themes and ideas guy.

I’d have to find the reference somehow and look it up for myself.

However, it is much easier to verify and document this creed as the Shaolin creed, the details of which I DO remember from the first-ever episode of Kung Fu (circa 1972), featuring David Carradine as Kwai Chiang Cain.

So, although I do love Donaldson books, you can tell which left a stronger impression.

Hey Fenlander - did you hear about the world-champion MMA fighter Kazeka Muniz from Gracie Bara coming to Taiwan on October 15? Maybe you can discuss your theories about BJJ with him! :wink: