people who say one thing and then try to get out of it by denying it (or changing the story to something even less plausible) … well, i have very little sympathy.
i’m still interested to know … if there was no contract, other than a verbal one (the latest version we’ve arrived at) what possible problems could have been encountered on the return to taiwan, especially for a stop-over? the laoban was going to go to court saying that a foreigner who s/he was employing under the table had run off, and if by chance they decided to return, could the courts be so good as to royally screw them over?
you wanna skulk off in the middle of the night, expect a few lumps.
Seriously, how the hell did the OP get an ARC with only a “verbal contract”? Smells like bullshit to me.
Oh, and bringing your friend’s situation up? Pointless. Let’s see - they had to leave to handle a family crisis, you want to piss off and galavant about the countryside because you’re sick of work or whatever. Gimp.
I haven’t signed a contract with my current employer for the past year and a half and I have an ARC. I always had a written contract with all of my other past employers.
You may be forgetting one MAJOR thing: in Taiwan, an English contract is not a legally binding contract. It is simply a nice little piece of paper you can use to clean your butt with. Almost all English teachers never see their real Chinese contract. To be a legally binding contract, it must be in Chinese and signed by the employer and employee with their name chops. Some bosses enjoy a little bit of creative freedom with this Chinese contract. How do you think they can declare that an English teacher only makes $30000/month to the tax office? A lot of times the school owner just hands the teacher a bunch of Chinese papers and says, “Sign here, here and here.” They then tell you that it is just some paperwork needed to process your ARC. They have most English teachers by the balls for things like that and they know it. :fume:
I know I’m going to get flack for this, but I stand with the OP guy. Nobody has the right to withold an entire month’s pay that an employee earned through his hard work (and I could give a rat’s bum what gets written into BS contracts here). I don’t see that an employer has any right to withold money I’ve earned. Honest day’s work for an honest day’s pay. Should an employer ever try to not pay me for services rendered, regardless of reason, they ought to know what to expect. An employment contract is not endentured labour. Expats are living thousands of miles from home. Things change and sometimes we need to leave. Penalizing an employee an entire month’s pay after they’ve provided sufficient notice is simply a rip-off and would be illegal back home (and may even be so here). OP, if you feel there is sufficent risk that you will lose an entire month’s pay if you inform your employer of your intention to leave, then perhaps it is best you leave without telling him. It’s your money, your time and your labour. You decide what risks you need to take. But I’m sure most people here would be willing to kiss 60+ thousand NT worth of their money goodbye (or whatever your monthly salary would equate to), should they ever need to leave a job early, because they are such principled individuals.
sorry, but the decision to go travelling (see original post) does not equate having to leave early … that is just skipping out when something does not suit your purposes anymore. these penalties are common, and although there are many things i don’t like about taiwan and the contracts here, i don’t think taking action such as this will improve matters any. why not ask to remove this stipulation before the contract is finalized, if you foresee a problem?
further, this thread has come to this point because the op seems confused about whether or not they have a contract … first they do, and then they don’t.
Your real contract may be in Chinese… however, English contracts are perfectly valid in Taiwan, so long as it is stated in the contract that this contract is the actual contract. In fact, any language can be used in a contract in Taiwan.
In Taiwan, parties to a contract are free to negotiate the terms of their agreement. Generally, if an employer fires or otherwise lets and employee go prior to the end of the contract, the employer must give a one-month notice or one-month of salary to the employee. Likewise, if an employee decides to terminate the agreement, he/she must give the employer a one month notice or forfeit one month’s salary.
Your real contract may be in Chinese… however, English contracts are perfectly valid in Taiwan, so long as it is stated in the contract that this contract is the actual contract. In fact, any language can be used in a contract in Taiwan.[/quote]
Interesting. I realize you are a lawyer in Taiwan but so is my girlfriend’s brother in law. He is telling me that all official documents in Taiwan need to be validated with a chop. Without a chop, it is difficult or impossible to enter into legally binding contracts in Taiwan. They are needed for banking, safe deposit boxes, land sales, vehicle ownership/registration AND employment contracts. I guess this is a grey area when it comes to foreigners.
Well there you go, so that is your written contract that the authorities require. If you sign papers written in Chinese blindly then you have to accept the repercussions for doing so.
If the OP indeed has an ARC for work purposes with the employer that he/she is referring to, then that person has a signed contract with that employer, whether they know it or not. I doubt very much that the majority of employers would forge such a document, and it is more likely that the OP signed a copy of an employment contract written in Chinese but may not have realized this. Either way, the employee has a contract, and that contract contains terms that were
You’re talking about two different things here: 1) the language in which the contract is written and 2) chops.
I replied above to your incorrect statement asserting that contracts, to be valid in Taiwan, must be written in the Chinese language. This is simply not true.
Regarding the use of chops to validate documents, it is NOT necessarily true that all contracts need to be stamped with the personal and or company chop of the parties. If that were true, how would foreign parties, who do not use chops, enter into valid contractual agreements with Taiwanese entities?
We deal with contracts on a daily basis with foreign parties that do not use chops. I can assure you that these contracts are enforceable in Taiwan.
I signed a good contract and made sure everything was right before I started my new job it was what seemed the best job that suited me out of about 5 job offers.
I made sure that I got paid a bi monthly salary and that I did not have to wait 6 weeks for my 1 months work.
Now it seems that my boss although he agreed to my request and signed the contract he does not like to do stateing that I have to work enough days in t he month to get my full pay.
It states in my contract that I shall get a monthly Salary paid on the 10th and the 25 th of each month.
I started my job on the 20 january 2005 so there was a problem then I know and becuase of chinese new year from the 6 - 14 th February I did not get my full pay understood. However I did not get paid for chinese new year as I was a new Teacher of which I thought being a new teacher that would be accecptable.
However from 1st March this has been my first full month and was understood to have recieved my full salary this month.
My last pay was 25 Febthat was from 14 th Feb to the 25 after chinese new year.
My boss told me on the 10 th of march that I had not worked enough contract days to be paid the full amount and that he would make it up on the 25 March.
He verbally told me this along with his chinese teacher who also reconfirmed this.
Well 25 th pay I did recieve my salary but with a whopping 10,000 deduction for the same reason that not enough contract work days in the month to pay the full salary.
When I confronted him he gave me a lot of figures and dates about chinese new year and denied that he had ever said that he would pay me the full amount?
I am with an agent who is helping resolve the matter this coming Mondaybut speaking to him on the Phone I feel he will take the side of the school boss.
However I did not loose my cool instead have decided to fight the matter from with in the school not leaving and am getting all dates of my pay and want to know how he calculates the salary when there are not enough work days, and have told the boss that he has indeed broken the contract and that any forfeit shall be void and from now on the contract is suspend during the internal enquiry.
You’re talking about two different things here: 1) the language in which the contract is written and 2) chops.
I replied above to your incorrect statement asserting that contracts, to be valid in Taiwan, must be written in the Chinese language. This is simply not true.
Regarding the use of chops to validate documents, it is NOT necessarily true that all contracts need to be stamped with the personal and or company chop of the parties. If that were true, how would foreign parties, who do not use chops, enter into valid contractual agreements with Taiwanese entities?
We deal with contracts on a daily basis with foreign parties that do not use chops. I can assure you that these contracts are enforceable in Taiwan.[/quote]
Thanks for the info, Tigerman. I see what you are saying and that is why I said there must be a grey area when it comes to foreigners contracts. From my own personal experience, my vehicle registration needed to be stamped with my chop, as did my housing contract. In both of these cases I was informed that my English signature would not be acceptable and the contract would not be legal without my chop. Also, a few years ago, while in Hong Kong, I was attempting to get a 2 month visitor visa due to work. I gave them my contract and the first thing they said was, “This is in English. This is not acceptable. It is not a legal contract. Come back with your Chinese contract.” :loco: The rules always seem to change depending on the mood of the person you talk with and the position of the moon. Oh well, thanks anyways for the information.
Are you serious? How would you like the foreigners to remedy this? Should they take every piece of paper their bosses ever give them and have them professionally translated? :loco:
If they employee didn’t understand what they were signing is this still true? I agree with you if you are talking about English contracts. Unfortunately, many teachers are duped into signing ridiculous Chinese contracts without even knowing it.
[quote=“brian”]The actions of these less than honorable employers doesn
Are you serious? How would you like the foreigners to remedy this? Should they take every piece of paper their bosses ever give them and have them professionally translated? :loco:[/quote]
I wouldn’t take everything to have it professionally translated as I would only work for companies that I know are on the up. Newbies are unlikely to know this, and in their quest for the highest pay they can find, may overlook the value of a good employer. In these cases, I would say ‘Yes’, it would be in that employees best interests to ask someone to confirm the content of documents prior to signing them. They need not seek a lawyer to do this but would be protecting themselves if they asked a friend to check it out for them.
I doubt that many of us would ever sign anything remotely official back home without first reading it, and it is beyond me why someone would blindly do so here. I would think that in the majority of cases there would be nothing to worry about, as the employer is unlikely to be asking the foreigner to sign something that is deliberately misleading, but if someone did sign something without first confirming what it was they were signing, then they can hardly turn around and complain about this.
Yes I do believe that foreigners should be held responsible for contracts that they sign, even if they don’t understand the content of that contract - with one major exception. The exception being any contract that has an English and Chinese version, where the understanding is that the employee is reading the English version. If in this case the Chinese version is considerably different from the English version then I believe that this should be nullified as the agreement to the terms was obviously gained under false pretences.
Overall though, I believe that it is an adults responsibility to ensure that they understand a contract before they enter into it. We all know the purpose of the contract, and the fact that it is an official record, as we need to sign it. It is our responsibility to ensure that we understand and agree to it. If this means seeking assistance from someone to check over the Chinese version then so be it. But anyone who signs a Chinese contract, or document of any kind, without first understanding the content of that document, is leaving him or herself very vulnerable.
No I am not naive at all, but thanks for asking - I guess!
It is unlikely that Taiwan schools will change the practice of penalizing teachers who leave early etc, and I will not cirticize them for this as in some cases these penalties are quite fair in my opinion. This is not what I was suggesting. What I am suggesting to those who are critical of this practice, is that attempting to avoid your obligations under the contract by running away is hardly likely to see an end put to the practice. If on the other hand foreigners become a little more responsible in fulfilling their obligations to their employers, then we may see a loosening of the practice or in the very least, a more reasonable attitude from employers in this regard. While foreigners continue to feel justified in running away just because their personal circumstances have changed, the situation will definitely not change in our favor.
[quote=“pod1”]I am about 3 months into my years contract I have lived in Taiwan 6 years and know Chinese people and the rule of law says never do business with Chinese Taiwan they will lie steal and cheat from you and will think it is funny when you then confront them about it.
I signed a good contract and made sure everything was right before I started my new job it was what seemed the best job that suited me out of about 5 job offers.
I made sure that I got paid a bi monthly salary and that I did not have to wait 6 weeks for my 1 months work.
Now it seems that my boss although he agreed to my request and signed the contract he does not like to do stateing that I have to work enough days in t he month to get my full pay.
It states in my contract that I shall get a monthly Salary paid on the 10th and the 25 th of each month.
I started my job on the 20 january 2005 so there was a problem then I know and becuase of Chinese new year from the 6 - 14 th February I did not get my full pay understood. However I did not get paid for Chinese new year as I was a new Teacher of which I thought being a new teacher that would be accecptable.
However from 1st March this has been my first full month and was understood to have recieved my full salary this month.
My last pay was 25 Febthat was from 14 th Feb to the 25 after Chinese new year.
My boss told me on the 10 th of march that I had not worked enough contract days to be paid the full amount and that he would make it up on the 25 March.
He verbally told me this along with his Chinese teacher who also reconfirmed this.
Well 25 th pay I did recieve my salary but with a whopping 10,000 deduction for the same reason that not enough contract work days in the month to pay the full salary.
When I confronted him he gave me a lot of figures and dates about Chinese new year and denied that he had ever said that he would pay me the full amount?
I am with an agent who is helping resolve the matter this coming Mondaybut speaking to him on the Phone I feel he will take the side of the school boss.
However I did not loose my cool instead have decided to fight the matter from with in the school not leaving and am getting all dates of my pay and want to know how he calculates the salary when there are not enough work days, and have told the boss that he has indeed broken the contract and that any forfeit shall be void and from now on the contract is suspend during the internal enquiry.
So even though you know the Chinese and try to gaurd against such things the fact still remains that they really hate foreigers and try every opportunity to rip them off.
I’ll let you know the outcome. I am from the UK by the and what people know that the British will not stand for such unfairness and preduice.
I want top stand up to this boss who at first seemed very charming but am affraid they are all money grapping blood suckers! :help:[/quote]
I think your post is offensive. There are more hard-working, honourable Taiwanese bosses than the kind you seem to blanket the entire society with.
Racist generalizations are cause for banning young Brit.
Are you sure he is not giving you the runaround because your English sucks?
My first question would be ‘Are you a native English speaker, and are you teaching legally?’ I ask this as I had some trouble understanding your post, and the information that I give below probably really only applies to teachers working legally.
Really?! Well I have been here for over a decade and I would argue quite the opposite. In fact, the time that I was ripped off the most was not by Chinese but by fellow foreigners who felt that they were above the law here.
[quote=“pod1”] I made sure that I got paid a bi monthly salary and that I did not have to wait 6 weeks for my 1 months work.
Now it seems that my boss although he agreed to my request and signed the contract he does not like to do stateing that I have to work enough days in t he month to get my full pay. [/quote]
I know that some schools pay fortnightly but this is the exception to the rule as most pay monthly.
From your post I understand that your employer originally wanted to pay you monthly but you negotiated for fortnightly payments. This may have been your first mistake, as any employer that was willing to negotiate this probably did so for a reason. That reason being that they desperately needed you and were therefore willing to meet your request. I would have been asking why the school was so needy.
Having said that, if this is outlined in the contract, then I am sure that you have some grounds for mediation should you feel that you need to secure your payments fortnightly. Contracts must be respected by both parties, and you are the only one who can ensure that your employer respects his responsibilities under the law.
I don’t know whether you didn’t get this payment because you were a new teacher, or more likely because such a benefit is not actually available to foreign teachers. My understanding is that most foreign teachers are considered part time workers, even though we may be working ‘full time’ hours. Part of being a part timer is that we are not entitled to certain benefits that full time staff get. Basically, the higher hourly salary that most of us get, ensures that we don’t get any of the other benefits.
[quote=“pod1”] However from 1st March this has been my first full month and was understood to have recieved my full salary this month.
My last pay was 25 Febthat was from 14 th Feb to the 25 after Chinese new year. [/quote]
So doesn’t this mean that your boss was actually paying you fortnightly as you say that he agreed to do?
So how many days did you work between March 1 and March 14?
What does your contract say about this? Is there a clause in your contract that enables your employer to penalize you this way? If so, why did you sign that contract as it seems pretty unreasonable to me?
From the above it would seem that your pay is calculated on a salary basis rather than an hourly basis. By this method your employer can then see how much you should be paid for each period. As it seems that you didn’t work the agreed number of hours for that period, your employer is deducting this from your wage. This seems reasonable!
Am I missing something here - Did you take time off during the payment period from March 1 to 14? If you were indeed working then what was the bosses explanation for this deduction?
Facts and figures about what?
Full amount of what?
There is your second mistake right there - why did you deal through an agent? Didn’t you read all the warnings about agents? I am not an agent basher by any means, but of course the agent is likely to side with the school. The school paid him afterall. Did you pay the agent anything? This is the conflict of interest that is the basis for many people warning off dealing with agents.
It’s good that you didn’t lose your cool. It wouldn’t have helped you at all if you had.
Doesn’t your contract discuss how the salary is calculated, and how lost hours are dealt with? If so, then maybe you could outline what the contract says and how the boss has broken this. There are some legal eagles on this forum who may have some helpful advice in this regard.
As to voiding the contract, well I am not so sure that you can legally do that. Were your contract to be based upon illegal activities, or contain an illegal clause or clauses that affected the whole contract, then I understand that you could seek to have the contract nullified. I guess that the best place to go for information about this would be the Council of Labor Affairs (CLA) as they are the ones that issued the work permit for you to work there. If there are any minor clauses in the contract with questionable legality then it is my understanding that these clauses could not be enforced legally, but would not alter the overall responsibilities under the contract.
This is a broad generalization that is unwarranted. You are talking about one employer. It is unreasonable to try and extrapolate this as pertaining to a whole race of people.
From your post it seems that you understand Chinese. Is your contract in Chinese or in English? What does your Chinese contract stipulate about the above concerns?
I suspect that the folks who told you that were simply too lazy to check on that. I have an account in a Taiwanese bank and when I withdraw money from it I sign my name in English. When I opened this account, the staff at the bank wanted me to have a chop and they said I could not sign my name (in English)… of course they were wrong and I do sign my name in English for that account… they just needed to be pushed to ascertain the facts.
Might it have been a case where your English contract was merely for reference… and that the Chinese contract was the official contract? If so, I would have expected to see a clause in both versions of the contract that indicated that one (the English version) was for reference only and that the Chinese version was the official version.
it is crazy how one post can cause so many people’s panties to twist into terrible knots. I think a lot of people have raised a lot of good points here, and I think it should be obvious to everyone that we all work for different people, we are all in different situations, and it is impossible to judge our fellow teachers just by reading a 5 sentence post on forumosa. The one thing that I cannot understand is how all of you went off on the OP. He asked one question about a flight back to Taiwan, and you all went nuts. To answer your question OP, you will have no problem coming back to Taiwan even if you have a cancelled arc, you will be treated like any other visitor (with a 30 day landing visa). Furthermore, in the defense of the OP, I don’t have a contract with my school, and all three of my roommates are sans contract (and we all have arcs). I also know I have not signed any papers in Chinese. Finally, we all know how employers can be, and I am not just talking about here in Taiwan. It seems to me that this person is just concerned about losing a months salary (if he was to “do the right thing” as you all put it and give the proper notice this could be a real possibility), and if his employer has a reputation for shafting employees, then I too might think twice about “doing the right thing”. I understand that a lot of you have probably had bad experiences because some teacher did a runner, but seriously, it seems that most of you just have nothing better to do with your time then degrade some guy who admitted to thinkingabout doing something oh so many of us have done before him. I also realize since I have involved my self in this sad display of ego and “intelligence”(?) that I should prepare myself for the same treatment as our scape goat.
I realize you are a lawyer in Taiwan but so is my girlfriend’s brother in law. He is telling me that all official documents in Taiwan need to be validated with a chop. Without a chop, it is difficult or impossible to enter into legally binding contracts in Taiwan. They are needed for banking, safe deposit boxes, land sales, vehicle ownership/registration AND employment contracts. I guess this is a grey area when it comes to foreigners. 
