British People's Prose

I’m nearly certain I haven’t read her stuff, but just now I had a dim recollection that she wrote some pretty tough stuff. So I just checked Wikipedia, and sure enough, her subject matter does sometimes appear kind of rough and tough–not necessarily macho, but not necessarily for the very sensitive reader.

Edited to add: I ain’t against the Brit writers (with the caveat that I probably couldn’t pass a quiz on any of these’uns):

Laurence Sterne: Tristram Shandy
Henry Fielding: Tom Jones
Rudyard Kipling: Kim
Joseph Conrad: Lord Jim, Heart of Darkness, Nostromo, The Secret Agent
Angus Wilson: Anglo-Saxon Attitudes (I don’t remember anything about it, but I remember enjoying it.)
George Orwell: Homage to Catalonia
I think I read Graham Greene’s The Quiet American
Kenneth Grahame: The Wind in the Willows (Children’s novel: I don’t remember much about this one, either, but I remember getting a big kick out of it, and I wasn’t a kid when I read it.)
Mark Haddon: The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time (This is one of the most unusual books I’ve ever read.)
I think I read C. S. Lewis’s The Screwtape Letters.
Jonathan Swift: Gulliver’s Travels
Robert Louis Stevenson: Treasure Island, Kidnapped
I’m pretty sure I read at least one of Michael Moorcock’s Elric novels, maybe in my mid-to-late teens.
John Le Carre: The Constant Gardener
Gerald Kersh: Nightshade and Damnations (collection of stories)
Robert Shaw was co-author of the screenplay for The Man in the Glass Booth, which I saw 'way back when.
The Sailor and the Fox, by Brian Burland (d. 2010), who was a Bermudian, but I think that technically he was a British subject.
James Joyce: A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, and the short story “Araby”
William Golding: Lord of the Flies
Raymond Chandler (born in the US in 1888 and moved to the UK in 1900, according to Wikipedia): The Long Goodbye, The Big Sleep

Shakespeare:

Romeo and Juliet (Romeo: “There is no world outside Verona’s walls!”)
Twelfth Night (Fool: “Alas, Master Malvolio! How came you beside your five wits?” Again, Fool: “Nay, I’ll ne’er believe a madman till I see his brains. I will fetch you light, and paper, and ink.”)
Macbeth (Banquo: “There’s husbandry in heaven. . . .”)
Hamlet (Hamlet: “And yet, what is this quintessence of dust? Man pleases not me, nor woman, neither, though by your smiling, you seem to say so.”)
The Tempest ([An unnamed sailor; I forget his actual job title–maybe Boatswain?]: “What cares these roarers [the threatening ocean waves] for the name of King?”)
King Lear (Fool to Lear: “Thou art Lear’s shadow.”)

I don’t think I remember the above plays well enough to pass a quiz, and I left out several that I hardly remember at all.

I apologize for forgetting that this was supposed to be about prose, but since this is already up here:

I only remember the first two lines

and the last line

of John Milton’s 19th Sonnet.

A pretty good deal of stuff by John Lennon and Paul McCartney

I vaguely recall her waxing lyrical about Mike Tyson, which felt incongruous at the time, but that’s perhaps more down to my bias.

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That’s the story a high school English gave me to read last year when I said she was too wordy. I have a tough time when people seem to be translating a more flowery language (like Arabic) into English prose. Dude, it’s a fucking flower, get over it.

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I’m not saying this as a dig against you, but it reminds me of something I read a number of years ago that, well, to me, was pretty impressive. It might have been a poem, or it might have been a short prose work. Unfortunately, I forgot the name of it, and I forgot the author’s name. The author was apparently a US infantry officer in the Vietnam War. His unit (I don’t remember whether it was platoon-level or company-level, but I doubt it was anything above that) was in a remote area of the forest. They came to a clearing, in which he saw a big, extraordinarily gorgeous, and to his thinking, rare flowering plant. And in his writing about it, he remarked that he and his men may well have been the only people ever to have seen that particular plant (and I guess there was an implication that it was doubtful that anyone would ever see it again).

I think I read that he died in combat. I’m pretty sure that in the past, I did some online searches for the poem/prose piece and/or the author, but I did not have good luck.

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If you find it, let us know. :+1:

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Try George Orwell, Evelyn Waugh, or Graham Greene. Scoop is a good place to start with Waugh. For Greene, Travels with My Aunt or The Quiet American.

Douglas Stuart’s Shuggie Bain is contemporary and awfully good.

A lot of people enjoy Tom Holland’s history books. Pax is the latest.

J.G. Farrell’s Empire Trilogy is sadly forgotten, at least on the American side of the Atlantic.

Naipaul’s A House for Mr. Biswas is worth reading several times.

You should find some flow in at least one of these.

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I asked ChatGPT, just for fun:

Me: Please identify which written work is being discussed here:
Person A: Dude, it’s a fucking flower, get over it.
Person B: I’m not saying this as a dig against you, but it reminds me of something I read a number of years ago that, well, to me, was pretty impressive. It might have been a poem, or it might have been a short prose work. Unfortunately, I forgot the name of it, and I forgot the author’s name. The author was apparently a US infantry officer in the Vietnam War. His unit (I don’t remember whether it was platoon-level or company-level, but I doubt it was anything above that) was in a remote area of the forest. They came to a clearing, in which he saw a big, extraordinarily gorgeous, and to his thinking, rare flowering plant. And in his writing about it, he remarked that he and his men may well have been the only people ever to have seen that particular plant (and I guess there was an implication that it was doubtful that anyone would ever see it again). I think I read that he died in combat. I’m pretty sure that in the past, I did some online searches for the poem/prose piece and/or the author, but I did not have good luck.

ChatGPT: The written work being discussed here is “The Things They Carried” by Tim O’Brien. The passage described by Person B is from the chapter titled “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong,” where a soldier recounts seeing a beautiful flower in the Vietnamese jungle. The soldier reflects on the rarity and beauty of the flower amidst the chaos of war. O’Brien, the author, was indeed a US infantry officer in the Vietnam War, and “The Things They Carried” is a semi-autobiographical collection of interconnected short stories based on his experiences in the war.

Me: Can you quote this passage?

ChatGPT: Certainly! Here’s the passage from “The Things They Carried” by Tim O’Brien, from the chapter “Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong”:

“They moved through the dark, and as they did, the jungle seemed to envelop them, hold them tight, and without a word they broke into single file and began to follow the trail. It was quiet. The rain had stopped, and in the heavy darkness there was a strange loveliness, a sense of timelessness, a touch of eternity. From deep in the jungle came the soft, liquid song of night birds, and somewhere far off, faintly, a little music, maybe a radio, drifting through the trees. They moved slowly, almost reverently, through the darkness, and for a long while no one spoke. Then, suddenly, one of them stumbled, almost fell, and as he caught himself he let out a gasp of astonishment and turned to the others, pointing. And in the dim, gray light they saw it, the flower, a big, solitary blossom, radiant in the darkness, and from a distance it seemed to glow with its own inner light. They stopped, all of them, and stood there in silence, staring at the flower, and as they stared, the night seemed to recede, the darkness lifted, and for a brief moment the world seemed to hold its breath. Then, slowly, almost imperceptibly, the moment passed, the darkness closed in again, and they moved on, single file, through the jungle, leaving the flower behind them, lost in the darkness, forgotten, as if it had never been.”

I then searched for multiple parts of the quoted text and couldn’t find any trace of it online. The book is available here though, and that bit doesn’t seem to be present in that chapter either. Nor does any mention of a flower like you describe in the entire book, as far as I can tell from searching for several likely keywords. So I asked ChatGPT again:

Me: Please check that quote. I can’t find it in the actual text.

ChatGPT: I apologize for the confusion. The passage I provided was not an excerpt from “The Things They Carried.” It appears to be a fictionalized account based on the themes and style of Tim O’Brien’s work. However, the specific passage described in the initial quote provided by Person B doesn’t directly match any passage from “The Things They Carried.” My mistake for the oversight.

If you’re looking for the specific passage mentioned in the original quote, it might not be from “The Things They Carried” by Tim O’Brien, or it might be a misremembered or paraphrased passage.

How weird! Does any of the above or the book sound familiar, or did ChatGPT just make it all up?

I had another go:

Me: That’s not right. Can you try again?

ChatGPT: I apologize for the oversight. The passage you provided doesn’t correspond to “The Things They Carried” by Tim O’Brien. Based on the description provided, it sounds like the work being discussed might be “The Destructors” by Graham Greene. In this short story, there’s a scene where a character named T., who is a member of the Wormsley Common Gang, discovers a beautiful rose in Mr. Thomas’s house, amidst the chaos of destruction they’ve caused. The description of the flower’s beauty contrasts sharply with the destruction surrounding it, echoing the themes of beauty in unlikely places and the impact of war or conflict on innocence and natural beauty. However, Graham Greene was not a US infantry officer in the Vietnam War, so it’s possible the work being referenced is a different one.

Oddly, I couldn’t find anything discussed about a rose/flower in The Destructors either (I haven’t read it).

Me: Can you quote this passage about the rose that you mentioned?

ChatGPT: My apologies for the confusion earlier. It appears there might have been a misunderstanding. “The Destructors” by Graham Greene does not include a passage about a rose. It seems there might have been a mix-up or miscommunication. If there’s a specific passage or quote you’re looking for, please provide more details, and I’ll do my best to assist you.

Will skip a bit here where I asked the original question again and ChatGPT gave the same answer. Then:

Me: That’s not right. Can you try again?

ChatGPT: I apologize for the confusion. Based on the description provided, the written work being discussed might be “Platoon Leader: A Memoir of Command in Combat” by James R. McDonough. In this memoir, McDonough, who served as a platoon leader in the Vietnam War, recounts his experiences in combat, including encounters with the natural environment such as seeing rare flowering plants in remote areas of the forest. The passage you described could potentially be from this memoir.

Me: Can you quote this passage?

ChatGPT: I’m sorry, but I can’t provide a direct quote from the passage you’re referring to as it doesn’t correspond to a specific well-known literary work in my database. If you have the text available, you could provide a segment, and I might be able to assist you further in identifying it or providing information related to it.

Does any of that sound remotely reliable, or is it all just bullshit? I’m getting less impressed with ChatGPT each time I use it! :man_shrugging:

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That sounds extremely promising! I’d say the odds are quite high that that’s the piece I read. It’s also good for my emotional well-being, because I was beginning to suspect I was having some kind of false memory.

Thank you very much, sir! :man_bowing:

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Wait until you confirm it’s the correct source first before thanking me! I’m quite baffled by the apparently new passage ChatGPT seems to have made up when asked for a quote…

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I hear you, but even if it turns out that it’s not what I was seeking, I’m grateful to you for taking the trouble to look for it. Also, because of your post, I feel encouraged to try to find and lay eyes on the original text.

And again, thanks very much!

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All good recommendations. Thanks!

I certainly will, and thanks for the encouragement! :man_bowing:

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I deleted this post because it turned out to be redundant/unnecessary. (Do we have a “confused old man” emoticon?)

I see why you did this but would suggest that this is not an effectie use of AI. Good at many tasks. Less so others like this.

ChatGPT is good at plausible answers like this. But not good at actually being accurate. Always ask if you are asking for accurate information. For now, it is not reliable on accuracy.

Go on… why? It was just a bit of fun and it obviously didn’t work too well, as I think I’ve already indicated, but finding details of something that might be within its corpus doesn’t seem an intrinsically bad use.

It aced the three I just asked it.

Me: I can’t remember the name of a book. It’s about some children in some kind of school who are brought up as organ donors to be used in the future. Can you help me identify the title and author?
ChatGPT: It sounds like you’re describing the novel “Never Let Me Go” by Kazuo Ishiguro. In the story, children are raised in a boarding school called Hailsham, where they later discover they are being raised as organ donors for the benefit of others. It’s a poignant and thought-provoking book.
Me: Another one I need your help with. It’s something about a Jewish chemist living in Fascist Italy where he talks about his studies and experiences in a concentration camp. Can you help me identify the title and author?
ChatGPT: The book you’re referring to is likely “If This Is a Man” (also known as “Survival in Auschwitz”) by Primo Levi. It’s a memoir that recounts Levi’s experiences as an Italian Jew imprisoned in the Auschwitz concentration camp during World War II. Levi, who was a chemist before the war, reflects on his survival, the human condition, and the horrors he witnessed during his time in the camp.
Me: Another one I need your help with. I think it’s a popular science book about the roles that microbes play in the human body and elsewhere. Can you help me identify the title and author?
ChatGPT: The book you’re describing might be “I Contain Multitudes: The Microbes Within Us and a Grander View of Life” by Ed Yong. In this book, Yong explores the fascinating world of microbes and their interactions with humans and the environment. He delves into how microbes shape our lives, affect our health, and influence ecosystems, providing an engaging and informative look at the microbial world.

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Those worked well. I guess I just find it more reliable when asking it to produce plausible text rather than researching facts or trying to elicit reliable conclusions. It can be an excellent starting points for finding facts or developing your own conclusions.

Here’s a search that I think is kind of similar. Response has many problems:

Who wrote 補破網?

ChatGPT

ChatGPT

“補破網” (Repairing the Fishing Net) is a famous poem written by the Chinese poet 陆游 (Lu You), who lived during the Southern Song Dynasty (1125–1210). Lu You is considered one of the most prominent poets of his time, known for his patriotic poems and contributions to Chinese literature. “補破網” reflects the themes of diligence, perseverance, and the importance of maintaining one’s livelihood, which are common in Lu You’s work.

User

You

What about the Taiwanese somg?

ChatGPT

ChatGPT

The Taiwanese song “補破網” you might be referring to is a popular folk song from Taiwan. Unlike the poem by Lu You, this song depicts the life and struggles of Taiwanese fishermen, focusing on the theme of repairing nets as a metaphor for fixing or dealing with life’s challenges. It’s a representation of Taiwanese folk culture, highlighting the resilience and daily lives of the people, especially those in coastal communities. The song is well-known within Taiwan’s music scene and has been covered by various artists, contributing to its preservation and continued popularity in Taiwanese culture. However, specific details about its original author or composer might not be as widely documented as those of historical poems or classical literature.

It’s fascinating how some writers, even though they speak the same language, can feel so different depending on where they’re from! It’s a mix of vocabulary, sentence structure, and even cultural references that can throw a wrench in the gears. For example, N. T. Wright, Simon Conway Morris, and Margaret Barker—though all brilliant scholars—have certain nuances in their writing that reflect the British style of academic writing, which can sometimes be dense and layered with allusions or more formal phrasing. The punctuation, the use of commas and semi-colons, and even the way they organize ideas can be more complex than what many American readers are used to.

It’s interesting that Richard Dawkins, despite being British, seems to flow more easily for you. I’d guess that his style might be a bit more straightforward, especially in “The Selfish Gene” and “The Blind Watchmaker”, where he focuses on explaining complex ideas in a way that’s accessible to a wider audience, not just an academic one. That could be why his work resonates with you—it’s crafted to be approachable and direct, avoiding the more convoluted or sometimes verbose qualities of certain other British writers. Plus, his use of examples and analogies really helps clarify his points.

It really highlights how writing styles can be shaped by more than just grammar and syntax—they’re influenced by the writer’s purpose, the audience, and even their own cultural context. Have you noticed this kind of difference when reading works by other British authors outside of academia?

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