I went online today and read that my countryment did this wearing our flag on their shoulders. That anyone would do it, but especially my countrymen. I think after today I can’t accept the argument that these incidents are isolated any more. I suspect that these cruel bastards were encouraged by a disrespect for human dignity that has emanated from the President, through the Secretary of Defense, and into the military’s treatment of prisoners. In the last few years, I’ve seen Americans described in pretty credible reports as:
torturing (I prefer not to dance around this word any more)
abducting, torturing, and killing men WHO WERE INNOCENT AND BECAME SUSPECTS BY MISTAKE (i.e. “man on the street”)
killing enemy fighters who have stopped fighting and are not resisting capture
delivering suspects to foreign governments where they were then tortured
desecrating the Koran as a questioning tactic
forcing prisoners to touch menstrual blood, insulting Allah, and humiliating prisoners sexually
These incidents bear all the signs that a culture is developing in which human life is worthless. This is just sickening and I pray, to the extent that I pray anything, that I don’t have to read any more of this. I can’t help wondering how many of these terrible cases could have been prevented if the President had come out supporting the Geneva convention for all prisoners. If he hadn’t had his lawyers look for the torture loopholes. If he hadn’t said you’re either with us or you’re against us. If he hadn’t encouraged the view that the enemy in Iraq is linked to 9/11. If he had instructed the army not to engage in this sadism. It’s hard to describe the sort of pain this makes me feel, I guess it’s the feeling of watching my leader swim against the tide of history, towards things that were left behind with good reason.
[quote]Mr. Dilawar’s three passengers were eventually flown to Guant
edit: I found the link to the NYT’s story on Mr. Dilwar.
This is also relevent to the article re:[quote]Afghan President ‘shocked’ By U.S. Abuse Report
by REUTERS, Published: May 21, 2005
Filed at 7:20 p.m. ET
KABUL, Afghanistan (Reuters) - Afghan President Hamid Karzai said on Saturday he was shocked by a U.S. Army report on abuse of detainees in Afghanistan, saying his government wanted custody of all Afghan prisoners and control over U.S. military operations.
Skip to next paragraph Reuters
The abuse described in the report, including details of the deaths of two inmates at an Afghan detention center, happened in 2002 and emerged from a nearly 2,000-page file of U.S. Army investigators, The New York Times reported on Friday.
It has shocked me thoroughly and we condemn it,'' Karzai said at a news conference. We want the U.S. government to take very, very strong action, to take away people like that.’’
Karzai, a staunch ally in the U.S.-led war against terrorism, was due to leave on a U.S trip on Saturday and meet President Bush for talks.[excert] nytimes.com/reuters/news/new … abuse.html[/quote]
As this is a New York Times article, registration may be required.
[quote=“jplowman”]I went online today and read that my countryment did this wearing our flag on their shoulders. That anyone would do it, but especially my countrymen. I think after today I can’t accept the argument that these incidents are isolated any more. I suspect that these cruel bastards were encouraged by a disrespect for human dignity that has emanated from the President, through the Secretary of Defense, and into the military’s treatment of prisoners.
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Until and unless you can show me a post where you were outraged at the events of 9/11 and condemmed the ‘bastards’ who ploted and executed it, I don’t have time for your electronic boo-hoo.
I don’t accept criminal acts as normal or right - by anyone. They need to be investigated and brought to justice. You, however, represent one more of those with highly selective reasons for attempting to focus attention every place but on the guilty.
With any victim I’ll lend an ear and support to the quest for justice and compensation, but your political agenda based rhetoric is sickening.
Just my humble opinion.
Oh, and religous tolerence and respect?–
Afgan, Afgan what do you say?
How many statues blown up today?
It seems to me we could just take things on a case-by-case basis, no need to relate this incident to 9/11. By which I mean, the actions described by the NY times have the same moral value after 9/11 as they would have had before, though I suppose they may have been less likely before 9/11 than they are now. Though the twin towers may have been very much in the minds of those gutless men proud they knew the “peroneal strike,” I don’t see any reason for one to hold 9/11 in one’s mind when judging their actions - more, that is, than one does at any other time.
I suppose my focus is selective, but not for the reasons I think you suspect. Enough Americans speaking out against an American policy can cause it to change. By contrast, if I were to post condemning or "boo hoo"ing the 9/11 attacks, wouldn’t it give the terrorists a perverse incentive? I don’t post about it for the same reason that I don’t like to let an enemy see my discomfort. The story was given another interesting dimension by Hamid Karzai’s response, in which he went to lengths to absolve the US of blame. I see good reason for him to do so as the Afghan president, but as an American I disagree with him. Thanks for posting, and thanks for joining me in condemning these soldiers’ cowardice.
As usual, though, Sullivan is a stand-up guy in consistently posting good emails, even when they are pretty hard on him:
[quote][color=blue]
"Y
ou really need to cool it with the naive self-righteousness; your latest postings remind me of something that a bitter freshman at Yale might write. I think you need to get away from your computer, take a trip to the Middle East and get a sense of the real world we’re living in. And after you get back, talk to some federal prosecutors you trust about the veracity of 99% of complaints by inmates. Your relentless and redundant commentary on abuses at Abu Graib and Guantanamo are out of proportion to what is going on there, and obscenely out of proportion relative to what is going on in the Muslim world. Over-aggressive law enforcement and military has always existed, and will always exist.
I’m not faulting you for pointing it out and discussing it – you should – but you are way overdoing it. You should follow the lead of Thomas Friedman and actually visit these countries, talk to the people and see how utterly insane the fundamentalists/insurgents/terrorists are. 400 Iraqi citizens have been murdered in the last couple of weeks by fellow Muslims, yet you spend much more time talking about a woman interrogator faking a period. There is nothing close to moral equivalence here. Now, if the interrogators lined up 400 prisoners at Guantanamo and summarily beheaded them, that would be a different story."
[/color][/quote]
Someone in another thread wrote that respect and tolerance are two-way streets. Maybe so, with rational and realistic people, but not with rabid fundamentalists. The very people who demand (and are to a point getting) our respect for ANY instance of