[quote=“Flipper”][quote=“Traveller”]
Flipper, the US is worse of in the area of security, not necessarily in general, hence why the misrep.
Of course security has an impact on the well being, but feeling less secure or down in one area, does not mean that in general people feel or even are worse off.[/quote]
let me break this down mathematically.
W = overall wefare of the nation
E = economic situation
S = security situation
M = misc factors that affect well being
W = E + S + M
by reducing S, you are also reducing W. it’s simple math here. basic logic.
my argument is a basic logical deduction. your argument is based ENTIRELY on your speculation on what Kerry meant to say.[/quote]
Flipper, using your example, your logic only holds true if the change in S is not outweighed by changes in E and M. If E&M > S then sorry, your logic is faulty.
You are doing what Bush did, to use only one element in a multi element issue, hence why it is a misrep.
A: B, I’ve traded my gas-guzzler for another, more fuel-efficient car.
B: Hey, that’s great!
A: Well, I don’t know: The gas-guzzler cost me a lot on gas, but the one I just traded it for has had mechanical problems. It looks like the cost of repairing my current one is going to be greater than the savings in gas mileage.
B: So, A, you’re sayin’ you were better off with your old car.
A: NO, STOP TWISING MY WORDS! You’ve failed to take into account that I got a slight pay raise last week, and that my relationship with my wife is better, and I get along better with my kids. You’ve just totally distorted and misrepresented what I–
B [nervously glancing at his watch]: Uh, look, A, it’s been nice talkin’ to ya, but I gotta important–uh–meetin’, and–
A: Wait, you fail to grasp the logic of my statement–
B: Uh, later, A, man, see ya. . . .
A: But wait, see, if marital relation is “M”. . . .
I’m pretty sure the Bs in America outnumber the As.
[quote=“Traveller”]
Flipper, using your example, your logic only holds true if the change in S is not outweighed by changes in E and M. If E&M > S then sorry, your logic is faulty.
You are doing what Bush did, to use only one element in a multi element issue, hence why it is a misrep.[/quote]
so you’re saying the economy and other aspects of the country in general have IMPROVED under bush? :bravo:
kerry said that this one single event - the removal of saddam hussein from power - reduced security for our country. since this event has no impact on other variables, it is a net negative on us well-being.
stop misrepresenting kerry’s words, traveller. kerry never said anything about the us economy or any other factors affecting us well-being when speaking in terms of saddam. that IS the event we’re discussing here.
[quote=“Flipper”][quote=“Traveller”]
Flipper, using your example, your logic only holds true if the change in S is not outweighed by changes in E and M. If E&M > S then sorry, your logic is faulty.
You are doing what Bush did, to use only one element in a multi element issue, hence why it is a misrep.[/quote]
so you’re saying the economy and other aspects of the country in general have IMPROVED under Bush? :bravo:
Kerry said that this one single event - the removal of Saddam hussein from power - reduced security for our country. since this event has no impact on other variables, it is a net negative on us well-being.
stop misrepresenting Kerry’s words, traveller. Kerry never said anything about the us economy or any other factors affecting us well-being when speaking in terms of Saddam. that IS the event we’re discussing here.[/quote]
Flipper, i never said the economy etc had improved, note the use of the word IF in my post.
US well being is affected by more than just the security issue, something you still fail to understand. You are taking a comment on one issue and trying to apply it to a much wider area than originally intended, hence the misrep.
Stop trying to twist and misrep words for your own gain, but then again your precious leader does so why not copy him eh !! :s
us well being is affected by more than security. i already laid that out earlier. but since kerry is saying that saddam’s overthrow was bad for us security and there are NO OTHER FACTORS influenced by saddam’s overthrow, then us well-being must have gone down, right? once again, SADDAM’S OVERTHROW did not have ANY OTHER EFFECT on us well-being besides in the security arena. therefore it is a NET MINUS according to kerry.
just like your favorite candidate, you are confused when faced with the simpliest of concepts. you’ve nuanced yourself to the point of absurdity.
[quote=“Flipper”]us well being is affected by more than security. i already laid that out earlier. but since Kerry is saying that Saddam’s overthrow was bad for us security and there are NO OTHER FACTORS influenced by Saddam’s overthrow, then us well-being must have gone down, right? once again, Saddam’s OVERTHROW did not have ANY OTHER EFFECT on us well-being besides in the security arena. therefore it is a NET MINUS according to Kerry.
just like your favorite candidate, you are confused when faced with the simpliest of concepts. you’ve nuanced yourself to the point of absurdity.[/quote]
WTF are you on flipper, it was you who introduced other factors not me, jeez, go back and look at your own posts, your W=E+S+M equation.
US well being is influenced by more than one factor in general, if you are saying that US well being as only attached to security, then i might agree, but that clarity and caveat was not given by Bush, who issued a general statement.
WTF are you on flipper, it was you who introduced other factors not me, jeez, go back and look at your own posts, your W=E+S+M equation.
US well being is influenced by more than one factor in general, if you are saying that US well being as only attached to security, then i might agree, but that clarity and caveat was not given by Bush, who issued a general statement.[/quote]
sigh
W = E + S + M
the overthrow of saddam affects S but doesn’t affect E or M.
kerry says the overthrow of saddam decreased S. therefore, he is saying it decreases W.
WTF are you on flipper, it was you who introduced other factors not me, jeez, go back and look at your own posts, your W=E+S+M equation.
US well being is influenced by more than one factor in general, if you are saying that US well being as only attached to security, then i might agree, but that clarity and caveat was not given by Bush, who issued a general statement.[/quote]
sigh
W = E + S + M
the overthrow of Saddam affects S but doesn’t affect E or M.
Kerry says the overthrow of Saddam decreased S. therefore, he is saying it decreases W.
is that really so hard to understand?[/quote]
Why are you so adamant that this is a linear relationship such that E does not affect S or M? If you want to increase security(S) you can either try to do it the free way, or you can pay for it economically (E). You seem so sure that security (S) does not have a miscellaneous emotional toll (M). I’d say it’s back to the drawing board with this one.
[quote=“twocs”]
Why are you so adamant that this is a linear relationship such that E does not affect S or M? If you want to increase security(S) you can either try to do it the free way, or you can pay for it economically (E). You seem so sure that security (S) does not have a miscellaneous emotional toll (M). I’d say it’s back to the drawing board with this one.[/quote]
so you seem to claim that all 3 factors went down…and yet you will not admit that your position necessitates that general well-being went down.
it’s funny how much you guys are twisting yourselves into a knot just because you are afraid to say that the overthrow of saddam was bad for america. i mean we hear about what a mistake it was, how it had a bad impact on the economy, increased terrorist threats, reduced security, and yet you are sitting here trying telling me that none of that has made us well-being worse.
well, hell, if the us hasn’t been worse off with bush and the iraq war, what possible reason could there be to vote for kerry?
You are trying to maintain that because S went down using your equation then W goes down, all we are saying is that the real world aint that simple unless limited only to the S aspect.
Using your example, the W is reduced by the reduction in S only if W = S, and the debate is limited to the security aspect only. However, both you and Bush are trying to say that W is reduced by the reduction in S when W=E+S+M. As the E and M factors have changed over the same period of time then your assertion does not hold true, thus Bush has misrepped Kerry’s words. E has increased or at least according to the Bush supporters on this site within this period, and M has certainly been affected, the impact being depednet on circumstances etc.
I for one am very clear and unconfused, despite your best attempts to cover for Bush by trying to cause confusion
huh? i am NOT saying that well-being went down just because security went down(as claimed by kerry). i’m saying the overthrow of saddam had NO POSITIVE IMPACT on ANY OTHER FACTOR in the equation for well being so if you believe it negatively influenced security, then you cannot claim that it did not affect the well-being of the country.
wrong. brush up on your math.
if W = 2S, if S goes down, so does W.
if W = (S + 34), W goes down when S decreases
if W = (5S -14), W goes down when S decreases
if W = S/12, W goes down when S decreases
ouch. doesn’t it just suck when a product of the american educational system has to correct you on basic algebra? you have brought shame to your grade school teachers.
WRONG. unless you are suggesting that the overthrow of saddam had a POSITIVE impact on the us economy or any other factor, the ONLY thing that the overthrow of saddam affects is security. therefore, it becomes a linear relationship when talking about just the iraq war.
[quote]
I for one am very clear and unconfused, despite your best attempts to cover for Bush by trying to cause confusion[/quote]
then why have you completely avoided my clarifying questions? here, let’s try again.
in regards to the overthrow of saddam(in other words, the iraqi war as a whole), did it have a positive, negative, or no impact on the following factors in the us:
security
health care
economy
civil rights
education
please list ANY of those that you think were impacted positively by the overthrow of saddam/war in iraq.
Flipper, as and when the US educational system manages to teach you to read plain and simple english, then you can try and teach me basic algebra. You dont even know your arse from your elbow.
Just for your info, DA, Kerry did not say well being went down just because security went down, that was Bush, go back and start again, there a good boy. First grade will do.
[quote=“Traveller”]Flipper, as and when the US educational system manages to teach you to read plain and simple English, then you can try and teach me basic algebra. You dont even know your arse from your elbow.
[/quote]
lol. poor baby getting all snarky because he forgot basic algebra. it’s ok, it happens. i’ll try not to use simple math in the future as i can see that’s what’s throwing you off.
[quote]
Just for your info, DA, Kerry did not say well being went down just because security went down, that was Bush, go back and start again, there a good boy. First grade will do.[/quote]
wtf? do you even know what this thread is about? NOONE IS SAYING KERRY CAME OUT AND SAID THAT. what i’m saying is that you can NOT say that saddam’s overthrow reduced security and then pretend that you are not also implying that it made the us worse off.
[quote=“Flipper”]then why have you completely avoided my clarifying questions? here, let’s try again.
in regards to the overthrow of Saddam(in other words, the Iraqi war as a whole), did it have a positive, negative, or no impact on the following factors in the us:
security
health care
economy
civil rights
education
please list ANY of those that you think were impacted positively by the overthrow of Saddam/war in Iraq.[/quote]
what’s the matter, traveller? you’re very clear and unconfused on your position but you can’t answer some simple questions?
flip flop man, Kerry claimed no such thing, suggest you go back and start again, all you have managed to do is confuse yourself.
All Kerry said was that the US was less secure after the overthrow of Saddam than it had been before. It was Bush that linked it to US well being.
Like i said before, go back and learn to read english, it is after all one of the mother tongues of the country you reside in. I future you can use university level maths if you know how, then at least we can converse on the same level.
It just seems to me that you can understand what was posted even though there was a small typo. And look, the capitalization of US allows you to read “us” correctly.
Yet you make strange calculations about how the welfare of Americans not around the world but in America is or is not different. Then you make a point of about “irony” when others point out to you that what you posted is not clear.
twocs, still waiting for your or traveller to clarify your position:
[quote]
in regards to the overthrow of Saddam(in other words, the Iraqi war as a whole), did it have a positive, negative, or no impact on the following factors in the us:
security
health care
economy
civil rights
education
please list ANY of those that you think were impacted positively by the overthrow of Saddam/war in Iraq.[/quote]
i even made the questions multiple choice for you!
you have brought shame to your grade school teachers. 
