Control!!! The US controls exactly what in Iraq? The insurgency? The Iraqi puppet government?
It’s not in control. If it had proper control we wouldnt be seeing all the news reports of daily bombings and fighting.
Fred needs a reality check about control.
Bush needs a psychiatric report on control. For some reason he thinks he still controls the congress and the senate. :raspberry: :raspberry:
Of course, if wishes were horses beggars would ride.
Otherwise, you are saying that the U.S. Administration is willingly allowing this to happen despite U.S. troops and Iraqi civilians dying as a result. How vile!
No one can form a government without our backing. We control Iraq “strategically” not “effectively” I said. Everyone understands that.
Did I say we controlled Iraq “effectively?” No. I said strategically. I imagine you do not understand the difference but “dimmitude” on the left has never been a surprise to me. Also, where are the news reports of daily fighting? 80 percent or more are within 30 miles of Baghdad. What about the rest of the country? on any given day?
That was almost funny in a way that I imagine your feverish little mind will never understand.
I hate to break it do you but we still “control” the Senate. Not “effectively” but “strategically,” but then again, I doubt that you would understand what I mean…
Cute. Relevance?
Did I say “willing” to let this happen? Honestly, you people jump around from point to point in such a chaotic fashion that you would appear to have the attention span of a lemming and the political inclinations of the species as well. Have a nice FALL! Kersplash!
We control Iraq “strategically” this is a fact. We do not and cannot at present control Iraq “effectively” and to such a degree that serious violence is occurring. But just a case in point. We do not control South Central Los Angeles “effectively” nor do we apparently have the ability to control New Orleans or Lousiana “effectively,” but no one doubts that we control them “strategically.” Now, of course, the US is most eager to establish “effective” control to a far greater degree but we cannot. How is that vile? and why blame us? Why not blame the insurgents, Baathists, gangsters, et al. Remember that Russia was dominated by the same thugs after the fall of communism and now we have a very stable Moscow that used to be quite a crime capital. So while stability will eventually come, democracy (as is the case in Russia) may not. Regardless, Iraq will still remain under our “strategic” and perhaps then to a much larger extent to our indirect “effective” control. And this will be good.
Ha ha ha! You’ve definitely had some kind of ambulance chasers law training, haven’t you Fred? Your reply reads hilariously like that joke, “Hu’s in charge”.
Bush: Goddamn it, these bastards are killing everyone. Who’s in control in Iraq?
US military intelligence (sic): We are.
Bush: Well if we control it, stop the violence
US military intelligence (sic): I mean we control it strategically, not effectively.
Bush: Well who controls it effectively?
US military intelligence (sic): Well they do.
Bush: I thought . . .
So the best you can hope for Iraq’s future is a vast South Central or New Orleans? Did you bother to tell the Iraqis about this fantastic vision?
Oh they are vile creatures indeed and should be rounded up and offed to be sure. But on a blame front, how’s about when your buffoons streamed into the capital and laid off all the people keeping some semblance of civil order? You know, when you didn’t really have the numbers to act as a police force let alone an occupying army but were still expecting your showers of flowers. Can we blame you for that? You know, some of those now widely accepted errors in those initial stages. Keeping in mind of course that a tribal society like Iraq’s is going to want to exact some vengeance for your errors, so every day a suicide bomber rips through a community, every wedding party your ill-disciplined pilots mistake for a 'slamofascist boot camp and all those poor sorry souls snuffed out at checkpoints manned by the pumped up gun happy uniformed dregs of your country’s shopping malls just compounds the problem. What to do?
You know, if we were to look at Iraq as a listed company, your motley group of directors would be doing more time than anyone at Enron. But dear Fred, do please advise just why it is that we should have greater confidence in the future of your country’s involvement in Iraq than we can the appalling past? Do try to contain it to things tangible and no appealing to divine intervention, if you can.
That rather tellingly sounds like the tail end of a prayer.
HG
[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Now how the fuck did we get to Cindy Sheehan? That’s some yank bullshit I just don’t understand. Her son died in you war, by the way, Freak!
HG[/quote]
jahole mein furher. Ve can bring down animals to raihse unt slaughtah
[quote]We control Iraq “strategically” this is a fact.[/quote] No. That is an opinion. Right now we are fighting for strategic control. Strategic control mean more than just emplacing a goverment. The government in place must be able to effectively lead the country or it is not the government. in any case, lets see how long this gov. lasts.
laid off whom exactly? and under what circumstances? So, yes, I am asking you to prove your point here.
Okay. We are in an insurgency. Show me the figures of where a bigger “footprint” has won the war against an insurgency and then explain why this would help now in Iraq.
partially, but that is not what this is about and you know it. Feel free to blame away though. Your opinion is yours to have.
What war or effort has been without errors?
Yeah, those “wedding parties.” What a chump you are. Well, I expect that we will have to continue to slog this out on our own as usual until we achieve victory. Naturally, of course, you may “feel” that we are doing something wrong and I think that even you realize that US imposed stability is what is needed but you aren’t going to do anything about helping out on that are you? or even urging sympathy while we attempt to do so? This is what makes these kinds of arguments so appallingly lacking in substance. What is the point of discussing these things with people who really do not care about the end results? And really? IF you ask yourself, do you? IF you care about Iraq and its people and the future and stability of the Middle East, WHAT is the best outcome and WHO is best placed to deliver that?
You need not have confidence. No one is soliciting your involvement. What is it to you what we do or suffer in Iraq? Are you suggesting that you are in any way a party to this conflict/event? Why would I solicit the opinions of noninvited guests or those who are out of town regarding the food and service at a Fredfest? It is supremely irrelevant. You have chosen to be a non-actor and so of what importance can you possibly think that your opinions on this are? You are for “peaceful dialogue” or those wars that are “justified.” So when we get around to having either the former or the latter, we will give you a PM and let you know that it is time for you to “join the party.” haha
How droll.
But more interestingly, Lee Kwan Yew recently offered his support for the continued American venture in Iraq, but closed on the point that even the British weren’t stupid enough to dismiss the Japanese military before they’d gained control.
Well, as you rightly point out below, it’s not my business to be sorting out your war. What I would expect, however, is that before you embark on such a wild adventure you do so with some sense of where you’re going and how you can achieve your aims.
Errors? The middle class that might have cemented a civil society are desperate to leave because your military has repeatedly failed to protect them. It’s a screaming shame there isn’t another global power capable of ensuring your lot take your sorry arses off to the Hague for an international bitch slap.
Interesting style. Your goons, doing just as you want and mindlessly razing innocent villagers and I’m the chump? Brilliant! Black is still white in Fredland, right?
You had my support and indeed that of the country I can vote in, but given this protracted clusterfuck you’ve blown it.
What a presumptuous little turd you are.
Well obviously not the US, you’ve consistently shown that you are incapable. There’s a long list of those you have offered your assurances and then absolutely failed to protect before slipping your shabby arses out in retreat. Where would you like to start? Why don’t you give it a go selling your promises to the victims of Vietnam’s labour camps?
No one is a non-actor in this fiasco as the repercussions of your repeated failures will impact everybody on this planet. For the record, I was against your invasion, but afterwards as the insurgency grew I was for a military solution, but your military have proved yet again that they are simply incapable of doing what is asked of them. The hope is that one day you’ll be able to completely outsource your armed forces. Maybe those mercenaries will be better at it? Maybe then you can deliver something even remotely approaching your promises.
HG
Rather.
Or rather more tangentially… I guess that means no proof will be offered regarding your claim? Guess not. Better leave that along then shall we?
Yes, repeat that as many times as you like but let’s look at the evidence. Most of the leadership of the military was hopelessly tainted by connection with Saddam and for involvement up to their eyeballs in crimes against the Shias and Kurds, neither group was willing to allow them to remain in control of any military. AND most important, the vast majority, say 80 percent of the conscripts were Shia and Kurd. They simply deserted en masse. As did many of the Sunnis leaving you with an army of what exactly? to disband?
Good. So that is the end of your involvement in this discussion then? Oh… apparently not…
Why? Why is it your problem if it’s none of your business? Want to tell me how much money I can spend on fast cars, fast women and booze (courtesy of George Best) while complaining about how the rest of my money being spent on other things was just “wasted?”
You mean the Sunni middle class is leaving. Let’s see 6 million exiles during Saddam’s reign and today we are dealing with the movement mostly within the nation of around 1 to 1.5 million. Gee. It sure fell to pieces when we got involved didn’t it? Who would have foreseen these problems? despite the fact that there were no massive refugee movements during the invasion despite being widely predicted.
Oh. So the US and its leaders are guilty of war crimes? Which ones? And again, why is this an issue of importance to you? It seems to me that there were very few concerned individuals such as yourself reporting on the terrible atrocities happening to the Iraqi people until the US got involved. Now, why do you suppose that is? especially when as you have said you are not involved and this is “none of your business?”
Which villagers were razed? Haditha? Got prosecuted didn’t they? Anyone else that you would like to bring up?
Given that your country (the one you voted in) not only supported this invasion but participated fully in it, I am confused as to where your moral high ground comes from. Care to explain? So your nation did essentially ALL of the same actions, made ALL of the same decisions, came to ALL of the same conclusions as George Bush (albeit on a much smaller scale) and you as a citizen (who vote in that nation) are lecturing me why exactly? about what WE have done in Iraq?
Answer the question. Who is best placed RIGHT NOW to offer security to the Iraqis. Do you or do you not support that effort.
Obviously? Well, then you certainly must have an alternate power in mind. Who? Name one. I dare you.
have we? Where’s Saddam? How many elections has Iraq had?
So you will agree with me then (so hard to tell with your rambles) that we should not retreat? Good. That is precisely my view on the subject.
Hurray! We agree again. I, however, am a Republican and we voted and desperately pleaded with the Democrat Congress not to cut off aid to Vietnam AND as I have said repeatedly we had won that war militarily but we lost it politically at home. Yes, you tell me about those deaths all over Indochina. I agree. So, we are doubly convinced that having the US stay the course in Iraq is the right thing to do? Good. Now, we can be allies and fight all comers on this forum who suggest otherwise. Deal?
Oh so it IS your business. I am sorry, I had mistakenly thought you said that it was not. So, you are calling for the US to remove its troops or stay the course? And given that if you choose the latter, you sympathize with our predicament, you will call for your nation (the one you vote in) to send more aid, troops to the effort and you will also support us publicly on this forum and among your friends when they malign our efforts because you realize the importance of not having any more “failures.”
So back to keeping our promises as being most important? Fine. I agree. Also see that you favored a military solution. Good. So, er, what would you like to do as a citizen of the nation you vote in to help us out there? OH, I see. You want to have a vote on what we choose to do and how much we commit to the effort and how we spend our money and mobilize our forces and pursue military action but “without the vote” since you are not a citizen of OUR nation? How original. I think that we will have to take that under advisement. Would it be reciprocal?
HGC,
You’re wasting your time. You’re debating someone whose sole criterion of strategery is whether it is legal. Apparently, everything else, is just feelings or opinion.
And remember, once you are locked into a strategy, that is on its own proof that it was the correct one.
Either that or it is the ‘spilt milk’ theory: eg. now that we’ve really farked things up, how come you can’t you think of a better way out?
If this is strategically acheiving our goals, if this is success, then I’d really hate to see failure.
Did I say that ALL our goals were strategic? and that we were “achieving” those goals? No. I said we had strategic not effective control of Iraq.
Alternatively, if this is failure, then I’d really hate to see what happens later…
And the REAL enemy is still the Democrats! Is this the legacy of a country that’s endured a brutal civil war? I mean, don’t get me wrong, I loathe John Howard and his ironically titled Liberal party, but I would never blame them for anything quite as maliciously as Fred does the poor old Dems.
Did you know that it was the Dems that lost Vietnam? Militarily the place was locked down hunky dory land, except those evil commie loving Dems sold your country and those it had promised to aid down the Perfumed River. Fucking amazing!
I like Fred, I mean he is pretty darned amazing. I think it’s his philosophy background that allows him to see victories in defeat and control in anarchy, and no drugs! Erh, maybe that’s the problem?
HG
After the whole conversation, you pick this out and then bring this to the table like some kind of Aha! What about all the other points that I took the time to respond to?
haha. I agree with you about not leaving Vietnam and not leaving Iraq and this is the ONE and ONLY point out of a whole page that you can be bothered to respond to? You are truly lazy.
North Vietnamese generals admit that Tet was a military disaster for them but that they achieved their political aims beyond their wildest expectations. They also admitted that the 1972 invasion was a disaster. What are we to conclude?
Clearly, drugs have been ineffective in helping you to achieve any rational thought but then I get that: Reality is for people who cannot handle drugs. Yeah man. Pass the reefer. Fuck Bush. Fuck the Establishment.
Any hope that you will actually go back through my many points and try to answer them? I was in the mood for something between your barroom banter and Jaboney’s philosophical posturing. Of course, if he actually understood the philosophy in question, I wouldn’t mind the posturing not even one bit. Ironically, only Bob gets that… and that is truly absurb but in the delicious way that is the absence of meaning. Funny, how Bob gets all of that… Maybe I will try drugs.