Buxiban owners' pet peeves about foreign teachers

[Lord_Lucan]

@Tomas

Here’s a question that I think is on-topic: If it were possible for a buxiban owner to offer a salary that was above market rate, say NT$800 per hour for children’s classes, would it be possible for the owner to recruit better-trained, more professional teachers? Assume here that the boss is skilled with managing relationships, and that there is enough work to go around, give or take a few hours.

But do many buxiban owners want “better” teachers ? (Whatever their definition might be - I suspect “more malleable”) for some of them. It’s not just about money - it’s about not treating teachers like shit. I’ll work for less than that if my boss respects I have a private life and we can have a “you scratch my back I’ll scratch yours” arrangement.

It would be interesting to meet a buxiban owner who cared whether or not the kids learnt any English. (And for those of you who are and do, perhaps we’ll meet sometime ! But I will look forward to your posts in the meantime !)

[Lord_Lucan]

[quote=“Durins Bane”]It’s funny, you hear all this stuff on these forums about bad bosses and schools, but we never really consider who is writing these comments. And I think this thread is good because people can hear the other side of the story.

School owners look at profit…how one goes about it is one’s own business. My major expense is foreign teacher’s salaries (close to seven figures per month). That is a major expense…and so I need…must…look at that cost and ask myself, “Am I getting my money’s worth?” Hey, I will pay a teacher whatever salary that teacher is justified in getting.

I get stuff like, “I have one more student in my class. I want more money”. "Hey, you get a raise every six months, and you are working 40 hours a week here…vacation time whenever you want it…slurp my butt "(to paraphrase). I slap down the investment, take the risks, put in the hours, why shouldn’t I see the profit? I think many teachers don’t see this. What it comes down to is that many teachers don’t realize that this is a business. That is the first thing I tell new teachers. It is all about money. Yes, it sounds “greedy” and “evil”, but there are many schools that are making lots of money and still providing a quality education to their students. I don’t profit share with the teachers because they did not take the risks.[/quote]
I think it’s healthy and honest to remind the teachers that it’s a business. It is also common sense that the risk taker pockets any reward.

[crisp]

Durins Bane took the words out of my betel nut stained mouth.

This isn’t rocket science, but a basic desire to teach and willingness to learn remembering that you are making a contribution to the students education, is lacking in so many that wash up on these shores.

Owners are running businesses and some, like myself, try and balance this with giving the best learning environment we can. It’s taken years to establish a good reputation and I’ll be dammned if I’ll let some w%^nker mess it up.

Unfortunately, there are many places where management has no clue, lie and cheat to both teachers and parents and let the foreign teachers do what they want. There are also schools out there that successfully manage all aspects of the mix, but rarely get praised or acknowledged.

For every bad, useless and uncaring school, there must be more than a handful of teachers of the same ilk…

[Bassman]

@Soddom

[quote=“Boss Hogg”]Didn’t believe it at first but then we had it all recorded on our classroom camera system.

There’s nothing like an atmosphere of trust. :shock:[/quote]
The cameras aren’t there to spy on the teachers, they are there as a service for the parents who would like to see how their kids are doing in school. Parents can watch for 5 minutes at a time, it’s not good when they see the teacher sleeping at the back of the class. Unlucky teacher, nah… loser

[brian]

@Tomas

Here’s a question that I think is on-topic: If it were possible for a buxiban owner to offer a salary that was above market rate, say NT$800 per hour for children’s classes, would it be possible for the owner to recruit better-trained, more professional teachers? Assume here that the boss is skilled with managing relationships, and that there is enough work to go around, give or take a few hours.

Tomas I think that you are onto something with this and it is something that I have often considered and believe could work. Someone on this thread has posted that as an owner they will pay teachers whatever they are worth, and this seems to go along the lines of paying good, qualified and experienced teachers a high wage.

It seems to me that most teachers greatest enemy is their own confidence that jobs are easy to come by. With this kind of mentality it is hard to believe that these teachers would necessarily give their all to their job or try to work through problems as they occur. When the going gets tough many such teachers would just up and leave. This lack of loyalty is a major problem. But then why should teachers remain loyal to a school if their hard work and loyalty is not rewarded through promotional opportunities, pay rises or the like.

A school that offered good conditions and much higher than average pay could have their pick of teachers, rather than the converse which seems to be the case where teachers have their pick of schools. Teachers would not only need to give their all to get a job at such a school, but would actually need to perform in order to keep that job. The threat of losing the job and having to return to a run-of-the-mill cram school paying average wages may be just enough incentive to keep them in order. It wouldn

[wipt]

@Tomas

Here’s a question that I think is on-topic: If it were possible for a buxiban owner to offer a salary that was above market rate, say NT$800 per hour for children’s classes, would it be possible for the owner to recruit better-trained, more professional teachers? Assume here that the boss is skilled with managing relationships, and that there is enough work to go around, give or take a few hours.

There are buxibans that offer that much. I’ve worked for two of them. Speaking Chinese was a basic qualification. Another was the ability to carry on like a military drill sergeant, sadism and all. Quality–as I define it–wasn’t the main concern as there were anywhere from 16-32 students per class and the focus was purely on Q & A conversation.

When our school–the one I’m currently in–was looking for teachers, we had the idea that $800 per hour would attract serious applicants who’d be willing to put forth the necessary effort to teach and actually earn what was being offered. Turns out that it was a mistake. We screened applicants for three months without finding a suitable teacher. In general, the applicants showed a keen desire for money and not much else–especially the ones who wanted to know how long it’d be before we upped their pay to 1000 per hour. Some even had the nerve to say that while they’d never taught English before, they were sure they could do it because, as they put it, ‘it’s so easy’. Others were under the impression that they could earn their pay simply by showing up.

In the end, we had to change our strategy. At first, we were looking for professionalism and experience; later we began to consider reliability and trainability (if that’s a word) as perhaps more important.

Give them an inch and they take a mile! That’s one of the lessons I learned during the hiring process. Another thing I learned is that too many of the people I interviewed had an over-inflated sense of their own value. They were more than willing to accept a higher wage, less than willing to work a little harder. Some, particularly those with little or no experience, said that they might have problems teaching the classes according to our schedule, and within our structure, because they had–again, as they put it–their ‘own style’. Maybe it was just bad luck, but of the thirty or so people I interviewed, none made much of an impression. Only one indicated that he had a sincere desire to learn how to teach and we would have hired him, but we couldn’t have done so legally; he had no degree.

Now, we’re looking for people who are willing to go through a period of training and to learn how to do things the way we want them done. Too often, those with experience are unwilling to work with our pre-set schedules and to do things our way. They claim that they can get lots more money elsewhere. I show them the door. In short, it may be possible to recruit better, more professional teachers with the lure of higher pay. But I won’t be trying it again.

[Hartzell]

I think that this article is worth reading:

“Broken Contracts and Unpaid Salaries”
China Post, PRIME TIME section, page 2

Friday, May 09, 2003

[Durins_Bane]

wipt,

What you wrote is gospel. I couldn’t agree with you more. That is an outstanding post.

That is why I look for trainability in applicants first and rarely hire people who have experience.

[Joesox]

Wipt and Durin’s Bane, how do you ensure loyalty? Do you have a probationary period and then a pay rise / full contract? Do you offer pay bonuses to staff who stay more than a year? In my mind, fairly rapid pay rises to well-performing and loyal staff could still attract and keep those with some external qualifications or useful experience, but you could keep the starting salary at average to discourage opportunists or inflated egos.

[fredericka_bimmel]

[quote=“wipt”]

Now, we’re looking for people who are willing to go through a period of training and to learn how to do things the way we want them done. Too often, those with experience are unwilling to work with our pre-set schedules and to do things our way.[/quote]

Very telling.

Just a thought, but couldn’t those with experience and theoretical backgrounds offer more insight into alternative pedagogies and approaches that might help your school progress and develop?

Or perhaps those with that much experience wouldn’t avail you. Maybe you’re dealing with the middle ground, instead. Those who’ve taught for a while, and expect higher pay, but who still have very little to offer.

[Durins_Bane]

@joesax

Wipt and Durin’s Bane, how do you ensure loyalty? Do you have a probationary period and then a pay rise / full contract? Do you offer pay bonuses to staff who stay more than a year? In my mind, fairly rapid pay rises to well-performing and loyal staff could still attract and keep those with some external qualifications or useful experience, but you could keep the starting salary at average to discourage opportunists or inflated egos.

Most of my teachers are working between 30-40 hours at the schools. I pay for ARC and health check costs. Raises are given every six months. 25 hours of paid teacher training before you start to work. Bonus on completion of contract. Teacher support: Saturday morning detention, make-up class, extra help class. Great schedule and curriculum.

[almas_john]

crisp, Durins Bane and wipt,

How do you feel about hiring teachers from overseas as opposed to those already working here in Taiwan? If you don’t place that great a value on experience, would you rather have Taiwan virgins?

On a different note, how is this for a classic?
A prospective teacher came to my school and told the boss that he only teaches the “Interchange” series, and that if he had to teach any other books then he would have to get paid more. The boss still hired him because we were so short of teachers!!

[Durins_Bane]

I prefer getting teachers from overseas. I work with a great agent and have had nothing but good results.

[taiwan_boy]

This is an interesting thread. Great to have input from someone who actually owns a school and can give an inside opinion.

Getting back to the original question of buxiban owner’s pet peeves I imagine they would be:

1. Teachers who think working in Taiwan is like a paid holiday. They expect to get paid without putting any effort in.

2. Teachers who think they know everything about teaching (even though they usually have no qualifications or experience) and are unwilling to listen to the advice of the school or follow the curriculum.

I think both of these points have been mentioned in some way already. Point two is something of a double edged sword. Some teachers often kow a lot more about education than the people running the schools and could give a lot of good advice about improving/changing the curriculum, but schools don’t like being told what to do. Some schools have goddam awful curriculums but persist in using them because they don’t know any better or have peculiar ideas about education.

[crisp]

@almas john

How do you feel about hiring teachers from overseas as opposed to those already working here in Taiwan? If you don’t place that great a value on experience, would you rather have Taiwan virgins?

I usually try to hire from overseas. Trainability is the most important trait for myself. I’ve found that teachers who have some Taiwan teaching experience (year or two), ask for higher wages but don’t necessarily offer better, more committed teaching. Someone who has spent a year with no initial training or ongoing advice, in a bushiban owned by a person who has no clue, tends to have a high sense of self worth but offers very little to me.

“I don’t teach it that way”, “That’s not my style” only counts if you actually have skills and experience to back it up. Like Durins Bane my school has its own curriculum from kindergarten through to High School. It’s not perfect but it’s a damn sight better than any fresh faced backpacker is going to offer.

Someone made a point about the “middle ground” of teachers. It’s true for myself. I would be prepared to hire an experienced teacher to bring new ideas but my problem is finding them. Simply offering higher wages doesn’t seem to automatically guarantee high quality applicants.

I imagine that every business, career, job has its own specific problems that you learn to work around. The one for owners in Taiwan (worldwide perhaps), is good, committed professional teachers. Few and far between.

[Zen]

With the risk of sounding repetitive, I love this thread. As a teacher it’s important to understand the laobans position, and the frustrations of running a profitable, yet productive school.

We lost a teacher today. Fired, due to many of the reasons listed by the bosses on this thread. I liked (like) the guy, but he deserved it.

I do have my own bitches and complaints regarding the treatment of teachers in Taiwan. However, most of these issues have been discussed to death. It’s refreshing to get the perspective from the other side of desk.

[wipt]

@fredericka bimmel

[quote=“wipt”]Now, we’re looking for people who are willing to go through a period of training and to learn how to do things the way we want them done. Too often, those with experience are unwilling to work with our pre-set schedules and to do things our way.

Very telling.

Just a thought, but couldn’t those with experience and theoretical backgrounds offer more insight into alternative pedagogies and approaches that might help your school progress and develop?

Or perhaps those with that much experience wouldn’t avail you. Maybe you’re dealing with the middle ground, instead. Those who’ve taught for a while, and expect higher pay, but who still have very little to offer.[/quote]
Sure, there are people out there with much more experience, expertise, etc., who would have a lot to offer. They could even help a school progress and develop. However, at the time of our search, that is not exactly what we were looking for; we were looking for a teacher.

[OldToeSave]

I know exactly what my last laoban bitches about…me

I did my job, effectively and with great success. My students loved me and learned from me, even though I was behelden to the school’s archaic and often erroneous curriculum.

I tried to offer some creativity into the mix and was nixed at every turn…I tried to point out glaring errors in the texts, ones that have been in use for 15 years (Mexcico??? Where the hell is Mexcico?)…so I gave up and did only and exactly what they wanted.

I was never late and missed only 1 class during my year due to illness.

Yet, when she sniffed out that I wanted holidays, she approached me and explained that she would be unable to gaurantee me hours if I was going to take more than 2 weeks…(our contract allowed for up to 8 weeks)…this was quite distressing as I needed the hours to make the money to take the holiday…so I cancelled my holidays…and she still took away my hours…

Granted, I didn’t handle things in the most Taiwanese of manners. Rather than beating around the bush for a couple of hours, I was direct and forthcoming with my misgivings, but I never lost my cool. I remained the consumate professional while she would constantly flip out and be close to tears, taking things far too personally. Even though she was a dragonlady who motivated with fear and intimidation, I didn’t let my feelings enter into our numerous “discussions” (I put on the quotation marks for sarcastic effect, as a “discussion” requires active listening, something she was wholly incapable of) and assured her that it was just business and that I was happy, very happy with the work, I just needed more of it.

Well, the weeks passed and the hours continued to slide. I got well within my window of holidays to end my contract and did just that…

Good riddance!

I am now employed in a great school where I am respected and encouraged to be creative. I have guaranteed hours and even if business falls (cough cough SARS cough), I will still be paid.

Why am I going on like this? Ego? Sour Gripes? No no no!

I am responding to the laobans posting on this thread…

I agree with alot of what you are saying…you take the risks, you deserve the right to set the bar wherever you want it. I do, however, wish to question the idea that an old curmudgeon like I would be untrainable. And, I am sure that I am not alone in my train-ability. There are plenty of hard-working, dedicated teacher-folk here. I would imagine that, as mentioned earlier in this post, the right attitude is the single most important factor when deciding on the hire-ability of a perspective educator. As it should be…

And while I am sure that you laobans are not solely concerned with the bottom line, that you are indeed, at least equally concerned with quality of education, I am equally sure that I wouldn’t apply for a position with you given the tone (or attitude) of how you expect your employees to act. A dedicated teacher will work 24/7. We fall asleep thinking up better ways to do our job and we awaken inspired to put said new ideas into effect. That said, if our administrator is a greedy gobbly-gock who lords over us with a ham-fisted approach to human resources and relations, then we will most certainly bed down with all manner of fading thoughts save those of work.

Get my drift?

Respect your front line staff and they will perform for you. I so enjoy my job right now that I spend quite a bit of free time just hanging around, talking to students and generally being not only a team player, but a leader. And the desire to lead is the best attitude for a teacher to have, n’est-ce-pas?

Peace

[Joesox]

It seems what wipt & Durin’s Bane mean by a teacher is someone like a mechanic as opposed to an engineer; someone who follows instructions and gets the job done. This is fine, but regarding hanging on to teachers (must be a good thing in parents’ eyes), surely they get bored after a year or two and move on?

I did my Trinity cert. TESOL part-time over the course of an academic year. It gave me increased opportunities for reflection compared with those who do the course in six weeks or less. The course seemed to be designed with a more European concept of a TEFL teacher in mind; one would do more of his/her own materials preparation, lesson planning and course design; one who was able to analyse learners’ needs and design programs for them.

Of course it was like the driving test in comparison to real driving; I’ve learned an awful lot in the last couple of years of teaching and am still learning. The course gave me a very useful conceptual framework within which I could develop teaching ideas & practices, though.

I don’t think this has in any way ‘spoilt’ me for Taiwanese buxiban teaching, however. Durin’s Bane seems to believe that learning teaching theory is incompatable with practising teaching. While of course there is a lot of rubbish teaching theory written there is also a lot of useful research conducted in real-life teaching environments, with measurable data. I am lucky in that both my immediate boss and the main franchise company are quite enlightened as to effective current teaching methods. I was the first teacher in my school and I’ve become increasingly able to help my boss with ideas and also vary and develop my own teaching methods, in part due to the perspective which the TESOL course gave me.

There must be a question as to what extent school owners want to conduct ‘micro-management’ and control every detail as opposed to allowing teachers with a little experience to use their own initiative in providing for their particular students’ needs.

I am a little puzzled as to Durin’s Bane’s teachers’ hours of work. Are those 30-40 hours teaching hours, or just hours spent in the workplace? If they are teaching hours, I have to suppose that you are conducting micro-management down to the individual lesson plan level, since that does not really leave much time for materials preparation and lesson planning on the part of the teachers.

This post is not meant to be conflictive; I understand the difficulties faced by bosses and I can also see why it makes sense to recruit enthusiastic young people from abroad and train them yourself. I know of a couple of big schools who only employ teachers with some form of teaching qualification, however, and they seem to be doing fine. One of those schools only employs teachers who are certified state (public) school teachers in their own countries.

If a boss wanted to recruit teachers to stay a few years, who could make some positive contributions to curriculum development as well as do a good job in the classroom, surely it would make sense to recruit those who had invested time and money in doing a TEFL certificate?

[Mucha_Man]

I suspect some of you bushiban owners are incorrigible prima donnas yourselves. Come on guys, you know you are. I bet dollars to donuts as my old ma used to say that DB had his fair share of trouble in the past with schools that wanted him to do it “their” way. Any school that used songs is in his mind a “loser school.” Hmm. I’m sure that attitude went over well with the kindie supervisors and principals and co-teachers.

Anyway, when you guys say you have a curriculum and method already established does this mean the teacher has no flexibility in the classroom? Do they have time to work on a little more listening comprehension if they want? Can they teach a couple of extra words if the kids are interested in a topic? Can they slow a class down if the students aren’t learning well (I mean without going through a shitload of bureaucracy)? Can they tell the occassional joke or riddle in class, or even, god forbid, sing a song? Are the minutes of every class pre-scheduled? What, if any, freedom does the average teacher have in your classroom to demonstrate basic sentience?