Buying a used SUV

All right Mike…

Now, what 4wd able to do most off road here would you buy if you were on a budget?

Moderators note: This thread was split from: SUV’s love em or hate em.

[SUV's Love em or hate em

There are some problems with buying a used 4x4 in Taiwan.

First, they are ridiculously overpriced. Even a 12 year old Jeep Cherokee can fetch prices of 200,000NT or more. Also, the maintenance factor. I spent major $$ on my truck due to previous owner negligence. It usually works something like this:

The owner realizes his high tax 4x4 is only worth a fraction of it’s original value, and major components are failing. His maintenance record is spotty at best, and he’s ramboed his vehicle in water, sand and mud without doing any sort of post-wheeling care.

He puts it on the market.

You pay for his mistakes.

Also, the choices here are fairly limited. If I had to do it all over again, I would have gotten down to Changhua sooner to check out the 1992 2.8 turbo diesel Isuzu Trooper that I had originally been looking at. I pondered for a day, and it was sold.

I’ll stand by my First Generation Rodeo for being the most (and truckish) SUV for the buck, but they are expensive to operate. I get about 15mpg in the city and maybe 18mpg on the highway. Which means I can get to Kenting on one tank, but it costs 1,600NT to fill it!

Your only other real choices are the Jeep Cherokee/Grand Cherokee, Isuzu Trooper, the Delica Van, or a Suzuki Prince.

Let’s explore the pros and cons of each:

Jeep Cherokee: Pros: Good off-roading ability, smaller engine, fairly cheap. Cons: Unibody construction (squeaks, rattles), smallish interior, underpowered 2.5 liter four banger.

Jeep Grand Cherokee: Pros: Good off-roading ability, fairly well appointed, decent power. Cons: Overpriced, smallish interior, hideous electrical issues.

Isuzu Rodeo: Pros: Good off-roading ability, well appointed comfortable interior, extremely solid. Cons: Truckish ride, valvetrain problems (valve ticking), transmission woes (Automatic only).

Isuzu Trooper: See Rodeo.

Delica Van: Pros: Roomy, adequate off-road, nice camping platform. Cons: Piss poor diesel engine, high-center of gravity/short wheel base,mediocre drivetrain, rust.

Suzuki Prince: Pros: Cheap to operate, decent off-road performance. Cons: Underpowered, limited hauling capacity, major issues with the 1.6 liter aluminum block (casting problems from the factory leading to cracked blocks), lousy road ride.

I’m writing this under the assumption that you have about 250k to play with.

I didn’t include the Wrangler is it doesn’t really fit the mold for a true SUV.

Don’t Mitsubishi also make a 4WD Delica with a 2.4l gasoline engine? I guess it will be more costly to run than the turbo diesel, but make a lot more power. I think this has only been an option for a few years so they are probably outside of this budget.

I’d also add the 4WD Toyota Surf to the list as a device with some off-road capability, though I don’t know what they go for used.

I didn’t include the 4-wheel drive Surf only because it’s outside the budget and doesn’t have a true part-time 4-wheel drive system. But, agreed it’s not a bad off-road performer, considering it’s limitations for ground clearance and whacked tires.

I have a good friend who has one, and I’m always impressed by what he can do with it. The one thing that bothers me about the surf is it’s tin can look and feel. It also has one of the ugliest interiors I’ve ever seen. On our last two off roading expeditions, his off-road enjoyment was somewhat tempered by two sidewall blowouts. On the other hand, traditional rear leaf-springs give it superior articulation compared to an Escape or CRV.

I’ve never seen the gasoline version of the Delica van, but that doesn’t mean they’re not around. One thing that is strange is you can find more unusual 4-wheel drives around the Taichung area than anywhere else in Taiwan. I even spotted a couple of Nissan X-terras last time I went through.

Yeah, there are several shops here with all kinds of bizarre vehicles. Unimogs, Hummers, Huge Chevy Tahoe type things and pick-ups.

The Delica 4WD 2.4 I had no idea about until I saw a couple too many badged that way for it to be the usual ‘ricer’ style badge-engineering. The CMC website is truly an eyesore and rife with mistakes, but the 4WD 2.4 is there.

maoman

test drove one of the recently… sublime. me want as well… but we ended up going for an audi s3…

Hey… is this as good in the terrain as it looks, a bit out of my budget…

The Tourag off-road?

Well, yes and no…

One of the unique features of the Tourag is it’s ride height adjustment. A full 3 inches if I remember correctly. Problem is that once you adjust your Tourag to it’s maximum height, you lose almost all of your suspension travel. So, you get a rock hard, spine-racking ride, and are constantly waving tires in the air. Looks cool, but not a good situation to be in for off roading. The Tourag does however offer advanced traction control to deliver traction to the right wheel. Of the pseudo 4-wheel drives, it will not doubt be the best off-roader of the lot. However it will lose out to almost any traditional part-time system (An 80 year old technology) in the dirt.

So far, the best suspension for off-roading will be a traditional part-time system with a two-speed transfer case and solid axles front and rear. This gives the suspension the ability to ‘flex’ and keep as much rubber on the ground as possible. The trade-off is a somewhat jittery road ride and heavy body roll when cornering. The next step is independent front suspension/solid axle rear. This has the advantage of far improved road characteristics without sacrificing too much off-road performance. The new SUV crowd prefers a carlike ride with a truck-like look, hence the tourag’s electronic attempts to bridge the gap between flat-handling road compliance and true offroad performance.

It works well up to a point…In a recent off-road test between a Tourag and a Lexus 470, the Lexus completely dominated despite having 2 inches less clearance. The reason? The Lexus drivetrain, although having some electronic enhancements, still utilizes a traditional part-time system as it’s base. The Tourag, on the other hand, was constantly hanging tires out to dry, and no amount of electronic traction control is going to save you when you have 3 tires in the air…

Thanks for the suspension tutorial Mike, I’d wondered about a few of those issues. I suppose then that the real Hummer (as opposed to the fashion accessory H2) has compromised some and traded ground clearance for traction with that IRS system and geared hubs?
As to transmissions, I had long taken the baseline that if 2WD and 4WD verisons of a vehicle were available, the 4WD system should be based off an RWD platform. For example, the Surf is based on a live axle RWD platform, fitted with a transfer case and front IFS driveline, which is much more in line with ‘real’ 4WD norms. The Escape and CRV however are FWD designs retrofitted with an extra driveshaft to a rear IRS setup. Would you say that this in general is correct?

As an example how useless some of these FWD-based systems are, I had a great video which featured a Volvo XC70 attempting a muddy slope of <10 degrees. It just sat there spinning it’s front tyres, the rears doing nothing. The Outback owner who made the movie climbed it easily without any wheelspin, even pulling a trailer.

Tyres and the correct choice thereof also have a huge impact onto a vehicles offraod ability. If an XC90 was unable to progress up a muddy slope that was less than 10’ then i imagine there was a very poor choice of tyres.

Whilst i do not agree with the current trend of LSUV’s etc, their greater height does provide for increased road visibility, until that is everyone drives one then it makes no difference.
Whilst few if really any of these vehicles have or need any real off road ability is moot, as most will never see more than a dirt track if that. I agree with MJB over transfer boxes etc, real off road vehicles require them.
I would still prefer for off road work a Landrover Defender, simple to maintain, yet are one of the best vehicles off road for the money. If really serious off road machinery is required, then few better the Unimog.

Hsiadogah is right on the money…

The Front wheel drive/driveshaft setup to an IRS rear is the most common setup for the Escape/CRV/X-trail crowd. In place of a transfer case is a viscous coupling.

Traveller is also correct in saying that tires play a huge role in traction. Most of the SUV’s coming out today, even the ones with part-time systems, are sadly misrepresented in the tire department. Most people just won’t accept the added road noise that comes with more aggressive All-terrain tread. On Mark Western’s kayaking trip, the Volvo support vehicle didn’t venture into the sand for the same reason.

Lastly, the most important addition to your 4x4 system would be differential lockers. They are the only ‘true’ form of 4-wheel drive out there. selectable lockers are by far the best, as full-time/auto lockers will play havoc with everyday driving, especially when trying to turn. The difference between a locked and open differential needs to be seen to be believed…

MJB, which of the different choices in the NT$250k range second hand would be cheaper to run maintenancewise?

Also, why don’t we get the advice on what to buy and the discussion of it split into a separate thread?

[quote=“Mr He”]MJB, which of the different choices in the NT$250k range second hand would be cheaper to run maintenancewise?

Also, why don’t we get the advice on what to buy and the discussion of it split into a separate thread?[/quote]

Done…

The biggest problem with buying a used SUV is either it’s been smashed by incomptent off roading or not properly maintained. I had the surreal experience of running into the original owner of my Rodeo on Friday. He was doing some landscaping behind my house and happened to see the truck. Anyway, it was both a pleasurable and painful hour listening to the 7 year history of my vehicle.

The good parts were that the milage was original and that every little door ding, blemish was explained. The bad news is that he’d never had any problems with the truck, which means he’d never bothered to do anything other than drive it and change the oil… :s

The 4 wheel drive had never been used for the first 8 years…Which explained the utter crap that came out of my transfer case. The hubs were dried out and needed to be repacked. One of his buddies had helped him do a diff oil change and replaced the gear oil with ATF! Sounded pretty interesting on the freeway.

My point is that any used SUV is going to be very expensive to operate. There are so many more parts and added work. Two diffs, driveshafts, transfer case…If you’ve owned a truck before, than changing out your added drivetrain lubricants is as natural as breathing. For the previous owner of my Isuzu, it was just cool to have. The second owner will do the expensive repairs later…I have extensive first hand experience. :doh:

The point of all this long-windedness is that I can’t really recommend one vehicle or the other, but if it comes down to dollars I’d have to give the nod to a manual 2.5 Cherokee. The taxes are lower with the smaller engine, and it’s very spartan. The wheezy 130bhp 4 banger is reliable and has a huge used-parts base. Solid axles front and rear give it good off road performance.

Remember also that no 4x4 is invincible…Check out this footage from Moab, Utah on a run called Hells gate…Only in a jeep…Yea, whatever.

stu-offroad.com/images/vid/tracyroll.mpg

Not sure if it’s of any interest but there are two Isuzu Rodeo on sale near the corner of Bade and Jianguo. There is a small car sales lot right on the corner, offering a nice looking white Isuzu Rodeo and a bit further north, near the motorbike shop, you can find a greenish, run-down, crappy looking Rodeo that has been there for at least a year. The latter is a private sale I guess (sign in the window with phone number).

My mechanic was so impressed with what mine could do off road that he bought one just like it…even the same year. After spending a few months looking, I was able to find one for him for 200k. Previous owner was a woman, had never used the 4-wheel drive and maintained the truck well (In her eyes). We often wrench side by side and it’s nice to have your mechanic drive the same vehicle as you do.

I posted a cherry 1996 lifted Rodeo here a few months ago for under wholesale bluebook, and nobody even looked at it.

The Rodeo has a couple of quirks you can use to your advantage when negotiating price. The first is the valvetrain tick, which is endemic to almost every Rodeo I’ve driven. I still get it occasionally on cold mornings, but it goes away after about 2 minutes. By using specific grade oils, and engine flushes, it’s not a huge issue. The second is the idle belt tensioner, which sounds disturbingly like a rod knock. Both of these engine noises sound really horrible to the uninitiated and can be used to knock down the price.

Please come down and check out mine top to bottom before going Rodeo shopping. I’ll be more than happy to put mine up on a lift for a perspective buyer so you’ll know what you’re getting yourself into.

Some pics here:

pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/michaeljbotti/my_photos

No, it’s not for sale.

About the Isuzu. It may be fairly competent but it is definitely not a jeep. It is also costly to maintain. If you are not a mechanic yourself prepare for expenses. The Cherokee is also okay but the tried and true wrangler, TJ,Cj etc. are still your best bet. If you do not need the room and only want enough for two and a little gear then they are much better. 4WD in these are much better and you can go more places. Problem here in Taiwan is that they are way overpriced.

It depends a lot on what you want to do with your vehicle and where you want to take it. The Isuzu would never make it up that hill “hells gate” so there is no point in bashing jeep over something that is out of the range of an Isuzu. Besides, the person giving guidance has to be good too.

Tyres definitely make a big difference. Again, it depends on what you want to do with your vehicle. IFS and solid axle are both very good for off roading. It depends on the setup of the vehicle all told and not just on those things alone. Unibodies as in most new SUVs are not good for four wheeling. They are very good for snow and other things on regular roads but for off roading they are not much.

In Taiwan the 2.5 engine is still in a high tax bracket. If it has anything smaller though it just does not have the power. So. buck up and pay the extra if you want to wheel. The surf is a nice vehicle and wheels well if you are not into massive heavy duty wheeling. MJB, do you have any photos of this buddies surf 4 wheeling? As far as the Hummer is concerned, it is the best 4wd ever made as of this point in time. The setup is not solid axle so that it gets the ground clearance, a whole 13+ inches. Each wheel works independantly but also work together. It is a cool setup that is out of most peoples price range so not worth talking about. Computers have come a long way and they do help in controlling the decent and assent of a vehicle. They help a lot with wheel spin as well. The new Toyota 4runner is a great example of this technology. Still one of the best standard 4wd’s you can get and a lot of fun. Anyway, hope this helps anyone out there that cares.

[quote=“heretoolong”]About the Isuzu. It may be fairly competent but it is definitely not a jeep. It is also costly to maintain. If you are not a mechanic yourself prepare for expenses. The Cherokee is also okay but the tried and true wrangler, TJ,Cj etc. are still your best bet. If you do not need the room and only want enough for two and a little gear then they are much better. 4WD in these are much better and you can go more places. Problem here in Taiwan is that they are way overpriced.

It depends a lot on what you want to do with your vehicle and where you want to take it. The Isuzu would never make it up that hill "hells gate" so there is no point in bashing jeep over something that is out of the range of an Isuzu. Besides, the person giving guidance has to be good too.

Tyres definitely make a big difference. Again, it depends on what you want to do with your vehicle. IFS and solid axle are both very good for off roading. It depends on the setup of the vehicle all told and not just on those things alone. Unibodies as in most new SUVs are not good for four wheeling. They are very good for snow and other things on regular roads but for off roading they are not much.

in Taiwan the 2.5 engine is still in a high tax bracket. If it has anything smaller though it just does not have the power. So. buck up and pay the extra if you want to wheel. The surf is a nice vehicle and wheels well if you are not into massive heavy duty wheeling. MJB, do you have any photos of this buddies surf 4 wheeling? As far as the Hummer is concerned, it is the best 4wd ever made as of this point in time. The setup is not solid axle so that it gets the ground clearance, a whole 13+ inches. Each wheel works independantly but also work together. It is a cool setup that is out of most peoples price range so not worth talking about. Computers have come a long way and they do help in controlling the decent and assent of a vehicle. They help a lot with wheel spin as well. The new Toyota 4runner is a great example of this technology. Still one of the best standard 4wd’s you can get and a lot of fun. Anyway, hope this helps anyone out there that cares.[/quote]

I hate to break it to you but Isuzus run Hell’s gate all the time :raspberry:

In case you are skeptical:

planetbantz.com/vid/zuzoo7/g … lsgate.wmv

In the background you’ll notice the lineup of Isuzus ready to go up…All made the ascent including a bone stock 1988 Trooper.

Now granted the Jeep’s flipover was caused in large part by the driver’s failure to heed her spotter’s urgent warnings, but the concept Isuzu Vehicross shown in the video made the climb rock stock (other than manual hubs and some aggressive tread). I’m a long way from convinced that the wrangler is all it’s cracked up to be. I’ve wheeled many trucks, and the Isuzu in stock form does better than most. One of the reasons for this is the super-strong Dana 44 limited slip rear end…Something a Jeep owner will have to pay big bucks to upgrade to. The older jeeps have open differentials front and rear, and I’ve had many a good laugh watching lifted Jeeps getting stuck and having to be strapped/winched/towed out by something else. The Isuzu is also very easy to lift. A simple torsion bar crank, some longer shackles for the leaf springs in the rear, new shocks/tires and you are good to go with 3 inches plus of suspension lift. Granted, you’ll lose some downward travel on the IFS, but the trade-off in clearance is worth it if you spend a lot of time crawling.

Don’t discount the Isuzu…It may have some quirks, and you are right it’s not cheap to run, but it is one damn tough truck.

We should be getting the trucks dirty sometime this week…I’ll bring the digicam along and shoot some vids…I think you’ll be fairly impressed with what the Surf can do. :slight_smile:

Can’t believe they don’t sell Land Rovers here. I bet half the so-called “off-roaders” in Taiwan have never heard of them.

They have those Discovery things here, although it has few similarities to my old man’s no-MOT , partially-floored 1968 job with the driver’s door held on with baling twine. Still fires up first time, every time, though, and he’s never managed to get it stuck anywhere – not for lack of trying.

‘They’ do sell Land Rovers here.