if the price issue is dealt with you still have the issue of petrol scooters being just being better to ride. its pretty much the same issue the world over and is likely not going to change with the capitalist system intact until technology catches up with it. especially in taiwan. the “young, progressive, upwardly mobile demographic” is something i could use to describe like 0.1% of road users here. i think its time for governments to start stepping in here. taiwan would be perfect for it. a huge percentage of people using scooters to commute small distances for convenience only, and a problem of air pollution that comes with that. electric scooters could do the same job just aswell, would be perfect, zero percent chance of it happening though.
In what way? Electric motorcycles are way more fun because:
(a) they’re easier to control. A jittery engine can be a right pain in the ass in slow traffic, especially on a motorcycle with manual gears.
(b) they have massive torque at the low end, whereas an ICE is gutless near idle speeds. This again makes them nicer to ride in slow-moving traffic.
(c) at high speeds, all you can hear is wind noise. A nice bass exhaust grumble might be part of the Harley experience, but a silent motor is attractive in a different way.
The low power of scooters currently on the market is not an inherent limitation of the technology. It’s basically down to two things: a poor choice of DC bus voltage (typically 48V) which limits the maximum power output and makes the drive system expensive and inefficient; and dishonest bosses who simply want to get a half-assed product out there and make as much money as possible. There are very few manufacturers making quality of the sort that you see in (say) Tesla’s cars.
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I wonder if a leasing model would work? Let’s say people could pay 10K up front so they’ve got “skin in the game” (= less likely to trash the thing for no good reason), and 1500 a month thereafter, for as long as they like, with nothing else to pay, ever. No fuel, no maintenance, no repairs (except for damage they do themselves), no worries about breakdowns (recovery service provided), free parking in GP
eS-marked locations, free charging. Everything taken care of except the driving (!). It would certainly give me peace of mind.
I’m pretty sure a scooter commuter puts NT500-1000 in the fuel tank each month, so that would be about twice as much as running a scooter, without the aggravation of actually owning a scooter.[/quote]
Good points. I think the average scooter commuter should only do 400-500 ntd a month, they are incredibly cheap to run.
There’s some infrastructure in place already to offer an electric/bike scooter scheme. Its the you bike systems in various cities around the island. They could efficiently expand electric charging schemes using the ubike base infrastructure and service team. Giant is the force behind youbikes, if they were smart they could have a huge new business on their hands.
Merida have just invested a tonne of money in an electric bike factory in Changhua.
The pieces are all there, but the national government is sadly stuck in a 20th century industrial development mindset.
There should be solar panels everywhere. There should be electric vehicles everywhere. Almost everything could be produced and serviced by taiwanese companies creating 1000s of manufacturing and service jobs. It is the national government with entrenched lobby groups from heavy industry and the motor vehicle industry which is blocking progress.
Local companies also need to go more high end with their design and components.
Has anyone been to Yuli in the Rift Valley in Hualien recently? When I was there in August, I was amazed at the number of electric scooters on the road. Is this the result of some local policy? It was certainly striking–and yet another reason why I very much like that town.
Guy
Yes, companies like Giant would be the ideal people to take this on. They have a real world-class operation and (I suspect) are flush with cash. The problem is I don’t think one company (even Giant) can do it on the scale required. A napkin calculation suggests about US$500m required for full coverage of one city (Tainan would be a good place to start - land is still available at reasonable prices, and there’s a serious lack of transport alternatives). That is, about US$200m for charge-and-park areas and service outlets (~500 locations), US$200m to design and build a proper a scooter fleet (200,000 scooters) and US$100m for operating capital over the first 3 years (I estimate breakeven in year 4).
It would start to get interesting once you had coverage in other cities, because the scooter you lease doesn’t need to be “your” scooter: you might be able to drop one off near the HSR, get on the train, and pick up another one at the other end - all for no additional cost apart from your monthly “subscription”. This would be awesome for people who commute long distances.
The ridiculous thing is that $500m, in the grand scheme of things, is very little. Local governments piss that sort of money down the drain on a regular basis. If you had a million investors putting in NT$15000 each, there’s your startup money. I find it sad that Taiwan’s population can’t muster the energy, foresight, and the modest amount of cash to pull off a feat like this. A million people is, roughly, 20% of Taiwan’s middle-class men, but those men would rather spend 15K on this year’s Samsung phone than an investment in the country’s future. It would be a world-changing example. Other countries would sit up and take notice of little old Taiwan.
[quote]There should be solar panels everywhere. There should be electric vehicles everywhere. Almost everything could be produced and serviced by taiwanese companies creating 1000s of manufacturing and service jobs. It is the national government with entrenched lobby groups from heavy industry and the motor vehicle industry which is blocking progress.
Local companies also need to go more high end with their design and components.[/quote]
Exactly.
Being 50 years behind the curve is the default condition of most governments. Private companies need to get together, form a joint venture to make this happen, and think big - with an eye on massive profits, not just environmentalism.
Can’t say I have, but that sounds interesting. I’ve been to a couple of places where enterprising locals were renting out electric bikes to tourists, and there were a lot of them on the roads. It’s definitely popular for that sort of thing.
[quote=“silas”]Vastly lower operating costs and maintenance costs of EVs mitigate somewhat against the low purchase price of ICEs, but then again, there are electric scooters on the market now that match them in price.
I see the matter of their appeal, or their suggested lack thereof, as a very interesting design and marketing challenge. It’s going to be crucial to up the ante on scooter design in general with features that represent innovation, a better overall experience first and foremost, great design, and then, btw, it’s electric.
Taiwan, still ranked #1 in the world in terms of the number of scooters per km sq, has, in a sense, the greatest problem, and therefore an opportunity to work this in their favour, distinguishing themselves. Where the need is the greatest, the opportunity is as well.
Targeting the young, progressive, upwardly mobile demographic will be key.[/quote]
We have discussed this (probably not with you) before but operating costs, initial purchase cost (used) and even maintenance costs are so cheap on current scooters that most don’t even think about it. Making something cheaper than cheap isn’t exactly a big selling point. The other problem is that pretty crappy options make up a bulk of the Escooter market in Taiwan (AFAIK). Perhaps there are some really good scooters being solid somewhere but I wouldn’t consider replacing my 150cc moto until there is actually an electric scooter capable of going 60-70+ km/h, have a 100km range, not slow considerably uphill and carry myself and a passenger (130ish kgs). I don’t think this scooter is available (possibly anywhere). Certainly not at a price point where I would sell my old motorcycle for 10-15K and buy something new (there is almost no used market) for a lot more. You tried to spin the lower cost but this would take years or possibly never pay off. Many people with older used scooters (5-10 yrs old) are in the same situation.
but the elephant in the room will remain the charging situation. Some people live in houses with power outlets but many live in high rises or use street parking. It’s not as simple as putting a few charging points in a high rise. Everyone with an electric scooter needs their own charging point. That’s going to take some big incentives (government incentives likely) to put in place. This isn’t a trivial undertaking.
Things might make perfect sense but these are some substantial steps that someone is going to have to bet their political career on. I would love for a plan that replaced 90% of gas scooters/motos with electric scooters and better mass transit but I don’t see the right pieces in place to hope for this in the next decade. Perhaps in a longer time frame we will start to see a shift as a younger generation takes charge and hopefully doesn’t just accept that things are the way they are though.
People here very much care about food quality, however, they do not realize that for every carbon atom there are two oxygen atoms needed to fuel the body.
Therefor, for every gram food eaten there is twice the amount of air needed, roughly though.
E-mobility could help a lot if implemented with a great portion of pragmatism.
Using cheap led acid batteries and hybrid scooters for a start. Then implementing zero-emission zones throughout the cities.
Hybrids could pass through and into these zones while combustion only engines can’t go.
Putting charging stations everywhere a scooter can park and by everywhere I mean everywhere. This way there is no need carrying the battery up into your apartment making cheap led acid batteries a viable option to expensive Li-ion packs.
Once the Li-ion technology has progressed to a state where they are cheap and long lasting, the old led acid packs can easily be exchanged with newer high tech ones.
[quote=“Hamletintaiwan”]People here very much care about food quality, however, they do not realize that for every carbon atom there are two oxygen atoms needed to fuel the body.
Therefor, for every gram food eaten there is twice the amount of air needed, roughly though.
E-mobility could help a lot if implemented with a great portion of pragmatism.
Using cheap led acid batteries and hybrid scooters for a start. Then implementing zero-emission zones throughout the cities.
Hybrids could pass through and into these zones while combustion only engines can’t go.
Putting charging stations everywhere a scooter can park and by everywhere I mean everywhere. This way there is no need carrying the battery up into your apartment making cheap led acid batteries a viable option to expensive Li-ion packs.
Once the Li-ion technology has progressed to a state where they are cheap and long lasting, the old led acid packs can easily be exchanged with newer high tech ones.[/quote]
People care about food scandals but I’m not convinced they actually care about food quality. The ground is way too polluted and they use way too much pesticide.
I think you start at a different level to phase out gas scooters. this would be impossible to get approved (like every suggestion in this thread) but there should be a pollution tax on scooters (1000-2000NT/yr), tough emissions for older scooters (some won’t pass and will be off the road), repo unregistered scooters and require expensive emissions equipment on new scooters. I think scooters would produce significantly less emissions if they were using state of the art emissions equipment but it is expensive. The important thing is that you don’t take something away from people (a bad idea generally) but you actually make scooters expensive to own. By doing this people start switching because it’s no longer cheap to own a gas scooter. The equation has changed.
If global demand for Li-ion batteries and electric scooters made by Giant increased significantly, would air quality in Taiwan improve or get worse? Maybe manufacturing these things for a global market would cause an increase in Taiwans air pollution.
European nations have improved air quality by shutting down coal power stations (because they ran out of cheap coal), and moving manufacturing abroad, mostly to China but Taiwan is also a big manufacturing economy. They’re terribly smug hypocrites to criticise air pollution in other nations.
The worst river, air and noise pollution I experience in my day to day is from the new MRT line being built nearby.
abacus: i wouldn’t really say its taking something away from people, banning scooters on certain roads to encourage electric and improve the environment is still giving people the choice to ride their scooters is they really love them.
finley: for me i would be happy with an electric bicycle, as long as all the scooter punks and cars are off the road so i could ride the thing safely and not do in my lungs. but for the average zhou i think an electric bike would feel less powerful, not fast enough, not big /stable enough to fit a family of 5 on. same thing for shopping or transporting random objects. there’s any number of reasons really, people are stupid and Taiwanese love convenience.
i don’t have any faith in it being dealt with in my tenure anyway. the state of it is a joke already and the locals don’t seem to even mind.
[quote=“Lros”]abacus: I wouldn’t really say its taking something away from people, banning scooters on certain roads to encourage electric and improve the environment is still giving people the choice to ride their scooters is they really love them.
[/quote]
I didn’t say this.
In other threads there were proposals to outright ban gas scooters. Yes, there is a history of legislating change for the greater good (and the air would improve considerably) but taking away gas scooters in Taiwan would be hugely unpopular. Like the kind of unpopular that ends political careers. Banning gas scooters and cars from a few heavily congested areas in Taipei is a completely different suggestion that I don’t disagree with. Nothing wrong with this.
[quote=“SloanRanger”]If global demand for Li-ion batteries and electric scooters made by Giant increased significantly, would air quality in Taiwan improve or get worse? Maybe manufacturing these things for a global market would cause an increase in Taiwans air pollution.
European nations have improved air quality by shutting down coal power stations (because they ran out of cheap coal), and moving manufacturing abroad, mostly to China but Taiwan is also a big manufacturing economy. They’re terribly smug hypocrites to criticise air pollution in other nations.
The worst river, air and noise pollution I experience in my day to day is from the new MRT line being built nearby.[/quote]
First, the last paragraph is pretty silly and doesn’t make much sense.
Second, not all European nations have cut back on coal, Germany has large deposits of coal which it mines and it also has increased coal usage for power generation.
The first statement is questionable, since Taiwan already produces a shit load of panels and batteries and other components for export. There’s also Ye right way to do things and the wrong way. One can burn coal, but use more advanced scrubbers to at least take out the SO2 etc.
[quote=“Abacus”][quote=“Hamletintaiwan”]People here very much care about food quality, however, they do not realize that for every carbon atom there are two oxygen atoms needed to fuel the body.
Therefor, for every gram food eaten there is twice the amount of air needed, roughly though.
E-mobility could help a lot if implemented with a great portion of pragmatism.
Using cheap led acid batteries and hybrid scooters for a start. Then implementing zero-emission zones throughout the cities.
Hybrids could pass through and into these zones while combustion only engines can’t go.
Putting charging stations everywhere a scooter can park and by everywhere I mean everywhere. This way there is no need carrying the battery up into your apartment making cheap led acid batteries a viable option to expensive Li-ion packs.
Once the Li-ion technology has progressed to a state where they are cheap and long lasting, the old led acid packs can easily be exchanged with newer high tech ones.[/quote]
People care about food scandals but I’m not convinced they actually care about food quality. The ground is way too polluted and they use way too much pesticide.
I think you start at a different level to phase out gas scooters. this would be impossible to get approved (like every suggestion in this thread) but there should be a pollution tax on scooters (1000-2000NT/yr), tough emissions for older scooters (some won’t pass and will be off the road), repo unregistered scooters and require expensive emissions equipment on new scooters. I think scooters would produce significantly less emissions if they were using state of the art emissions equipment but it is expensive. The important thing is that you don’t take something away from people (a bad idea generally) but you actually make scooters expensive to own. By doing this people start switching because it’s no longer cheap to own a gas scooter. The equation has changed.[/quote]
AFAIK scooters in Taiwan could easily be improved in terms of pollution emissions with the addition of more expensive catalytic converters. the main problem from scooters is the very high localised levels of Noxious gases which they put out such as SO and NO and O3. these gases have effects on our vascular system. Not only that, they also turn into tiny organic particles and lodge in our lungs.
Regarding the main problem of scooters in Taiwan is probably the increased density of engines per square foot!
Or jumpstarts it. It would be a huge gamble and if it failed, whoever caused it to fail would be a pariah for evermore. But this is why we elect officials who are smart and act for the greater public good, without regard to selfish considerations like backhanders and the next election :roflmao: I think it would be doable, and if it really worked out, the initiator would become a bit of a local hero. I remember people whinged and moaned about the CFC ban like the sky was falling, and then when nothing bad happened, they all said, well, that was a good idea, wasn’t it; aren’t we all so clever for thinking of that. Dolts.
The problem is, I suppose, this isn’t as simple as banning a particular chemical. In that case, there were viable technical alternatives that didn’t demand any radical change. While I agree that abacus’s suggestion is fair (simply putting a market price on pollution), I suspect people would whinge and moan about THAT, too, and there’s no guarantee that manufacturers would follow up with good products. People would just pay the money, grit their teeth, and carry on riding ICE scooters. The other side of the coin, then, would involve putting a price on crappy electronic products - similar to Europe’s RoHS legislation. Electric vehicles on the market today ARE a pile of shite, and that would have to be dealt with by legislation and standards. You’d have to do that either in the case of an outright ban, or a “pollution tax”.
It certainly worked in London. Red Ken became unpopular in some quarters, but the vast majority of Londoners quickly realised it was a basically great idea, and Central London is now a much nicer place to be.
Humour. I like to crack this joke about the pollution:
A Taiwanese went to South Africa and soon got quite sick. He went to a Taiwanese expat doctor and told him his symptoms. The doctor said get a large tupperware container, defecate in it, piss in it, put in various oils and rancid garbage, and let it sit. He was told after a day, to breathe it in for an hour over a towel.
The Taiwanese came back a week later and told the doctor he felt wonderful. He asked the doctor what he had. Nothing he was told. He was just homesick. 
Not at all, stand on the Xiulang bridge between Zhonghe and Xindian, you’ll see what I mean. Its been going on for almost 2years now and different phases of the work have made a right mess of the river, lots of dust and very noisy when they’re sheet piling. Building an MRT is a messy business.
Of course it’s a small comfort to me that when it’s finished (and I’ve probably left by then) other people will enjoy possibly cleaner air because fewer car and scooter journeys are being made. Bastards!
Of course it does, that’s precisely my point, the nations that import these products from Taiwan use them to reduce their reliance on fossil fuels and reduce emissions. But manufacturing these products causes pollution in Taiwan.
There is still a huge difference between the two cases though. Like exponential difference in risk.
Banning ICE scooters results in huge risk if the market is flooded with crappy e-scooters and the charging network isn’t ready. There isn’t much risk in tougher pollution testing (enforced), a pollution registration tax and expensive emissions equipment on new scooters. I think this is a practical first step to get to where you want to go with little chance of completely blowing up and setting back e-scooters another decade+.
I think many would simply abandon their scooters , maybe get a bike or an ebike or walk or bus or car or MRT or train…you know like Japanese people or even the Chinese now.
I remember Shanghai banned petrol scooters , virtually overnight. Just electric now…sort yourselves out… or walk /bus/train. The Government there don’t need to ( appear to), consider the popularity of their decisions like Taiwanese politicians have to.
Just got back from Shanghai. it’s a pity about the riders behavior riding on pavements, no lights, going through red lights, but at least there are less of them than Taipei and they don’t create so much pollution or noise. Most people ride something that is in between a bike and a scooter to my eyes, few cycle now unfortunately.