Can a taiwanese spouse legally oppose the other spouse's APRC?

Hello,

I would like to know if the approval (or lake of opposition) from a Taiwanese spouse is mandatory for a foreign spouse to successfully pass from an “Join Family ARC” to an APRC. I am asking this question because after a conversation with an immigration agent, I was kind of shocked to hear that the Taiwanese spouse’s opinion would matter.

Is it the same for foreigners on a company’s sponsored ARC? (In which case it would mean that the company can keep the ARC status as a permanent way of pressure on the employee … which is shocking too, it would sound like a fairy-tale of slavery).

Sounds like a tricky situation you are in! I am quite interested to know the answer to that one, however I believe it’s unlikely that anyone here will know the answer to that, but you never know, I may be surprised (:

Can you contact the NIA and find out if the spouses signature is required to apply for APRC? If no signature is required I would be surprised there is anything the spouse could (legally) do about it.

hey, I didn’t say it is my situation :slight_smile:

[quote=“pqkdzrwt”] I am quite interested to know the answer to that one, however I believe it’s unlikely that anyone here will know the answer to that, but you never know, I may be surprised (:
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What’s that piece of ridiculous sarcasm about? :loco:

OP, there are numerous posters, NorthCoast Surfer, Llary, bismarck, etc. who are VERY clued up on situations like that, and who regularly post extremely useful advice. Please take a ticket and be patient until someone attends to you. :wink:

[quote=“jimipresley”][quote=“pqkdzrwt”] I am quite interested to know the answer to that one, however I believe it’s unlikely that anyone here will know the answer to that, but you never know, I may be surprised (:
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What’s that piece of ridiculous sarcasm about? :loco:
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It’s called reverse psychology. It doesn’t work with Forumosans.

For the record, I am actually genuinely interested if such a scenario could happen! No sarcasm intended.

And yes I agree there are some very knowledgeable people here but really, how would anyone know if this is possible unless they went through it themselves or could read Taiwanese legislaiton?

[quote=“pqkdzrwt”]For the record, I am actually genuinely interested if such a scenario could happen! No sarcasm intended.

And yes I agree there are some very knowledgeable people here but really, how would anyone know if this is possible unless they went through it themselves or could read Taiwanese legislaiton?[/quote]

At a minimum, it’s a fact that you need the household registration booklet, or an official transcript of it issued within the last three months, each time you renew your ARC. If this is withheld from you, I believe you’re out of luck. I haven’t had to put that to the test, but I wouldn’t like my chances if I had to, at all.

As usual, I misread “APRC” as “ARC.” I bet this document is required though.

[quote=“jimipresley”]Please take a ticket and be patient until someone attends to you.[/quote]Now serving number 666, number 666 please step forward! :roflmao:

Before I attempt to answer your questions with what little knowledge I have regarding this matter, you must first remember the following postulate.

[color=#FF0000]1. There are no laws, no rules, no guidelines, and no standards of conduct in Taiwan that are important enough that they can’t be disregarded for any reason. [/color]

Now that we’ve got that little tidbit out of the way. Here goes.

[quote=“karmaGfa”]I would like to know if the approval (or lack of opposition) from a Taiwanese spouse is mandatory for a foreign spouse to successfully pass from an “Join Family ARC” to an APRC.[/quote]The simple answer is NO. It is not mandatory for a foreigner on a marriage JFRV to get permission or approval from their Taiwanese spouse in order to apply for and be granted permanent residency (APRC).

The not so simple answer: In order for JFRV holders to apply for an APRC they need to provide some information/documents related to being married to a Taiwanese national.

  1. Taiwanese spouse’s ID card: If the Taiwanese spouse refuses to allow their foreigner spouse to have access to this document, it can make it very difficult to apply for the APRC or even renew a JFRV ARC. I have run into this situation quite a few times. Every time a foreigner needs to renew their JFRV ARC they need to take a copy of the ID card with them. The people I’ve dealt with usually sweet talk their spouse into surrendering their ID card in order to renew their JFRV ARC and also when applying for the APRC. Many Taiwanese spouses are not opposed to their foreigner spouse renewing the JFRV ARC because it just continues the “indentured servitude” for another three years. However, applying for the APRC gives the foreign spouse complete freedom (except for marriage/divorce issues) and many will oppose it. It’s best to NOT indicate applying for an APRC if an applicant feels it would be opposed by their Taiwanese spouse. In fact, some applicants I’ve assisted borrowed their spouse’s ID card without their knowledge and took the card to the nearest 7-11 to scan it and then surreptitiously returned it without their spouse’s knowledge. I recommend that all foreigners on an JFRV ARC make a 300dpi scan of both the front and back of their spouse’s ID card so that it never becomes an issue when either renewing their JFRV ARC or applying for the APRC.

  2. Household registration. An APRC applicant needs a current computerized print out of the Taiwanese spouse’s household registration showing the foreigner as an added member of the household. For me, I have never had a problem walking into my local HHR office here in San-Zhi and requesting a current household registration from them. They know my wife, they know me, it’s no problem. However, if there is a law or policy that states that only the[color=#FF0000] head of the household [/color] is legally able to request this document it could be a problem because foreigners are not allowed to be listed as head of the household on the household registration form. I don’t know what the legal policy is regarding obtaining this document. Perhaps others on this forum could comment more clearly as to the ease or difficulty of obtaining this document without the assistance or cooperation of their Taiwanese spouse.

  3. Annual income/Tax report. APRC applicants must provide documentation of income and taxes paid in order to show sufficient income and legally paid taxes. If an applicant and their spouse file taxes under the designation of married/filing jointly and if an applicant’s Taiwanese spouse is listed as the [color=#FF0000]primary tax payer[/color] , the Taiwanese spouse is the only person who can get this document from the Tax Bureau. There have been many stories written here on Forumosa about foreigners not being able to get this document without the assistance/cooperation of their Taiwanese spouse. Forumosan [color=#FF0000]spaint[/color] comes to mind as having had this issue when he was applying for the APRC. See him for more details. The Tax Bureau, absolutely will not provide this tax document to the foreign spouse if their Taiwanese spouse is listed as the primary tax payer even though the foreigner is listed on the tax form! However, you never know what you can accomplish if you don’t ask. See the postulate highlighted in red above for more information and guidance.

  4. APRC interview: Some offices will request/require an interview with both the applicant and the Taiwanese spouse when finalizing the application. Why? Well, because the NIA wants to make sure that the marriage is actually real and not on just on paper to provide convenience of employment and/or immigration opportunities. Who? Well, that’s kind of an arbitrary selection. If the foreigner APRC applicant is from a “designated” country that has a history of illegal immigration or scams, then the NIA will require an interview. I know that some applicants from Nigeria and also from eastern European countries like Russia, Latvia, Lithuania have been required to have their Taiwanese spouses present for their APRC interview or had a home visit in conjuction with the APRC application. I’m from the U.S. and my spouse wasn’t required to be interviewed. On all other applicants I’ve assisted, the NIA requested the spouse to be present for the interview, but the applicants didn’t bring their spouses, due to marital strife, but their applications were approved anyway. When asked about where their Taiwanese spouse was, they just replied that they were unavailable to attend.

[quote=“karmaGfa”]I am asking this question because after a conversation with an immigration agent, I was kind of shocked to hear that the Taiwanese spouse’s [color=#FF0000]opinion[/color] would matter.[/quote]I’m guessing that there was a miscommunication between you and the NIA agent because this is not accurate. The NIA will not reject an APRC application simply because a Taiwanese spouse’s opinion is, “No, don’t give my foreigner spouse an APRC!”. I would like to know which NIA branch office you got this from and specifically the name of the NIA agent who gave you this impression. Also, was this the NIA agent who is in charge of processing APRC applications or was it just a run of the mill NIA agent at the information counter?

[quote=“karmaGfa”]Is it the same for foreigners on a company’s sponsored ARC? (In which case it would mean that the company can keep the ARC status as a permanent way of pression on the employee … which is shocking too, it would sound like a fairy-tale of slavery).[/quote]This is much more black and white and the answer is NO. When a foreigner has a work-permit and an employment based ARC, their employer has no power or say over whether they are approved or denied an APRC. The NIA will not contact or seek any input of any kind from an APRC applicant’s current or past employers. The only way an employer could make difficulties is by refusing to furnish the applicant with past work-permits, tax withholding documents, employment contracts, etc. However, everyone SHOULD already have all these documents without the need to ask their company for extra copies. There is absolutely no excuse to not have all original work-permits, employment contracts, tax withholding statements, etc., in your possession and filed away in a safe place. When I applied for my APRC, I didn’t need anything from my current employer as I already had everything that I needed.

I hope this helps. :bow:

I think the long answer (read above) covers it. Many countries expect you to find a ‘sponsor’ if you want to work/stay for a long time. This is someone who will assume some level of responsibility for your conduct while you are in that country. That’s what your company does when they help you get an ARC. However, they can and will cancel it without a moment’s notice if for any reason they don’t want to ‘sponsor’ you any more. I would assume getting an ARC independently would give you more security, but I don’t have any experience in that. You still need to get a work permit, which means you need a sponsor of some kind.

When I applied for my APRC, my wife did show her ID card and smiled in approval (if that means anything). I also had to show 3 years of work permits, which my old company willing provided. I guess if people wanted to get nasty, they could try to slow you down. But I’m unsure if my wife is now my sponsor or if I’m fully independent (feels like she’s the boss sometimes! Ha.)

The way I look at it is that we are guests here. Even with an APRC, I never will be a Taiwanese citizen. So I just try to appreciate how much easier my life is now that I’ve got an APRC. Now that it’s done, though, I doubt anyone but the government could take it away from me. I’m sure, somewhere, there’s a line I could cross that would piss someone off enough to start legal action to try to get me out of here. Wherever that line is, though, I don’t care to dance.

Thank you for your helpful answers. Now I understand better, the agent was probably referring to the APRC interview and some checks from the NIA on the authenticity of the marriage.

That’s strange. I’ve never needed it. Just last month renewed my JFRV due to address change and again, just the household registration printout was needed, which I’ve always got a copy of just by presenting my ARC. :ponder:

That’s strange. I’ve never needed it. Just last month renewed my JFRV due to address change and again, just the household registration printout was needed, which I’ve always got a copy of just by presenting my ARC. :ponder:[/quote]

The same for me.

[quote=“Northcoast Surfer”][quote=“jimipresley”]Please take a ticket and be patient until someone attends to you.[/quote]Now serving number 666, number 666 please step forward! :roflmao:
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Thanks for taking the time to provide a very detailed and useful response! I wonder if the requirement to have a copy of the spouses ID card is no longer required, based on some other comments?

[quote=“pqkdzrwt”][quote=“Northcoast Surfer”][quote=“jimipresley”]Please take a ticket and be patient until someone attends to you.[/quote]Now serving number 666, number 666 please step forward! :roflmao:
[/quote]

Thanks for taking the time to provide a very detailed and useful response! I wonder if the requirement to have a copy of the spouses ID card is no longer required, based on some other comments?[/quote]
I’ve been on a JFRV for more than 10 years. Only time I’ve needed a spousal ID was for the original application.

Interesting, I assumed you would need the household registration with you to get it.

Interesting, I assumed you would need the household registration with you to get it.[/quote]
Nope. All in their office computer. Tap, tap, tap, clicky click with the mouse and all done.
Interesting thing is, though, that if my WIFE wants a copy, she DOES need to produce the original.

[quote=“sandman”]
Nope. All in their office computer. Tap, tap, tap, clicky click with the mouse and all done.
Interesting thing is, though, that if my WIFE wants a copy, she DOES need to produce the original.[/quote]

I think there’s a difference between a transcript with one’s personal information only, and one with the entire family’s. That might be it.

Interesting, I assumed you would need the household registration with you to get it.[/quote]
Nope. All in their office computer. Tap, tap, tap, clicky click with the mouse and all done.
Interesting thing is, though, that if my WIFE wants a copy, she DOES need to produce the original.[/quote]
Ditto. Haven’t been on the registry as long, but I have changed address once or twice, and never needed the household registration for the follow up.

That’s strange. I’ve never needed it. Just last month renewed my JFRV due to address change and again, just the household registration printout was needed, which I’ve always got a copy of just by presenting my ARC. :ponder:[/quote]The same for me.[/quote]Please read postulate 1! :roflmao:

[color=#FF0000]1. There are no laws, no rules, no guidelines, and no standards of conduct in Taiwan that are important enough that they can’t be disregarded for any reason. [/color]

For clarification and an absurdly long winded explanation, the last time I renewed a JFRV ARC was back in 2002 at the main Taipei office of the Foreign Affairs Police in Shi-Men Ting. I had all my documents prepared ahead of time, but didn’t have my wife’s ID card or a copy. The police officer would not allow me to renew my JFRV ARC without a copy of my wife’s ID card. So, although I had all the documents necessary to renew, sans my wife’s ID card, she made me come back the next day. So, the next day I returned and took a number and low and behold I got the same police officer. She was pleased to see my wife’s ID card, but then wanted to see my current apartment lease agreement. She said that although I had my mother in-law’s HHR from Chong-Li, for which my wife and I were duly noted, that in order to renew my ARC I needed the current apartment lease in Taipei or she couldn’t renew my ARC. She was actually going to tell me to come back the next day. But, by this time I was totally pissed off with her and I demanded to see the Major and have him explain to me why she was being so uncooperative and nickel and diming me one new document every day! If I came back the next day, what new magical document would she need me to have. Suddenly, everything was ok[color=#0000FF]…“No need to bother the Major…the address is the same address as your previous renewal…so zub zub zub…therefore…I guess it would be ok…this time…cough cough…sputter sputter, but don’t forget to bring your lease next time.”[/color] Yeah, right…there would be no next time because then I applied for my APRC and life has been gravy since in the visa status realm at least.

So, apparently there is no need to have your spouse’s ID card or a copy when renewing a JFRV ARC any longer. However, a copy of the Taiwanese spouse’s ID card IS necessary when applying for an APRC or for naturalization. But, don’t forget to read postulate 1 first! :roflmao:

In the Flowchart for the Application for Naturalization in Marriages between Foreign Nationals and ROC Citizens and Household Registration it says “The Household Certificate OR National ID Card of the spouse bearing the citizenship of the R.O.C.”

Doesn’t this mean you could just submit the household paper instead of the spouse’s ID card?

and doesn’t this mean you can just grab one yourself and submit it because isn’t the one for the spouse the same if you are in the same household?

The Flowchart

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