Can Int'l Students take local uni entrance exams?

Dear all

Another instance of bureaucracy in action here on our own little Paradise Island

After losing my student status due to a combination of paperwork errors made by office staff and myself (mostly them), I have lost my student status in my Master’s program.

The administration has strongly suggested that I re-enter via taking the same entrance exam and related procedures as local students.

Is this possible under current MOE laws/regulations?

Seems to me the proper procedure is an appeal to the appeals comittee, which is what the registrar suggested. But my department head and the Office of Int’l Affairs have been against this from the beginning. :doh:

Any help, advice, interpretation of local red red tape would be most appreciated.

thx

UncleJamie

Very, very weird…

I think if the school will accept it, you can do it. Or you might as well try.

Good idea to appeal at the same time though.

Assuming they are not just trying to get rid of you, I say do what the school says, ie take the entrance exam.

My guess (and this is only a guess) is they dont want you to appeal because it may create trouble for them. Making trouble for them will probably decrease your chances of getting in.

Hey guys thx for the replies

The regulations do NOT cover this specific situation, but do state that a student who has been expelled or dropped out cannot reapply to ANY OTHER university in Taiwan. Seems like that also precludes your own Uni, as the only way to deal with dismissal is through the appeal process. Even if this is like a “sneak-thru the back door” way, if it doesnt pass muster under the eyes of the MOE, the degree is canceled, period.

So, yeah, they say I can do it, but I am feeling unwilling to be a test case for this issue. After all, how many of us have been told in this country, “oh, sure dont worry. you ask too many questions, we already told you it’s OK.” then, when trouble arises, it’s inevitably, “I didnt tell you that, you misunderstood me, you should have known…” in an endless stream of blameshifting.

And yes, it happens in every country, but office staff here, whether in cram schools, gov’t offices or Uni departments, seem to have taken the art of “give an irresponsible answer to a question and avoid all responsibiity when trouble arises” to a new level of mastery. :fume:

anyone with further knowledge of regulations, or, any knowledge of SIMILAR CASES, any help would be most appreciated. :notworthy:

UJ

I was under the impression that if you’re a foreigner you handle university admissions through applying, whereas local students can take entrance exams or apply, and overseas Chinese students apply for admission through a special “overseas university admission” committee…

But if they told you that it’s ok for you to take the university entrance exams, ask to get that permission in writing?

Hey catfish

Yah, all info I can find seems to agree with your assessment on how diff groups are supposed to handle admissions.

The fact that there are sep. rules for each category, incl. Overseas Chinese, makes me think that one has to follow the rules for one’s category ONLY.

yes, I have confirmation in writing, several times. But, what good will that be if MOE decides against it. Just big loss of face for all involved, and, as usual, the foreigner will somehow be blamed. (No, I’m not being paranoid.) Just have yet to see a single case where wrong information was given to the foreigner and the locals took responsiblity for doing so. (I’m sure it has happened, just haven’t seen or even heard of it happening.)

Well, your status changes if you complete a degree in the ROC – you’re then considered “local” for the purpose of applying for any further education. I’ve never heard of this sort of case. Were the paperwork glitches based on some failure on your part (in the eyes of the school) either in attendance or grades? Have you been formally expelled? What exactly does it mean to have lost your student status in this case?

I will say, though, that I have never found the department head to be particularly concerned about the interests of the foreign student, at least in my experience. I would trust the registrar’s word more, as he would seem to have less of an interest in which choice you make and more interest in just having the paperwork come out correctly (which is what you want).

Which fine institution of higher learning is this?

dear ironlady,

thx for your reply and insightful questions.

Yah, I have so far been able to find ANY case history or regulations that specifically cover this case.

Your comment about the Registrar’s office being more believable as they have less invested in the process seems to be all too true.

I am somewhat unwilling to post details as I have to make some accusations that may be legally sensitive. But I still very much value your advice, esp. from reading many, many of your posts :notworthy:

Will PM you with details soon, and thanks for replying to this post.

Again, thx to all who took the time to reply and/or view this post.

br

UJ

The problem with filing for an appeal is that it most likely will involve the university administration (dean of the college, academic affairs committee, int’l affairs, etc) to start an investigation, which in turn leads to people from the higher-up breathing down the necks of department chair, your advisor, secretaries, etc. The department guys probably want to keep this quiet so they suggest that you just go ahead and take the entrance exam like everyone else and hope that the pencil pushers at the registrar’s office probably won’t notice that you were previously a student when they follow the test results in and they start processing admission.

So how is the OP going to be expected to even have a chance at passing an entrance exam, which will most likely be in Chinese, and a good portion will be writing and literature (which is very hard if you have not been educated here, or have not had a PhD in classical Chinese literature) .

Problem is, even if he goes the administrative appeal route, he will have pissed off the people in the department. That means that even if he is reinstated, he will NOT graduate successfully anyway, and his life will be made a Living Hell for the remainder of his tenure at that school.

IMHO the best solution is to offer to quietly resign from the school if his student status is somehow reinstated with no prejudice, then TRANSFER as a foreign student (not having received a degree in the ROC). I’m not a lawyer and don’t know the regulations that well, but I’m trying to think of a way that gives the university something (yes, they reportedly f*ed this one up, but you still have to give them something to get something) while preserving the OP’s right/option to continue his schooling in the ROC. This would probably be highly irregular, but any solution to this issue will be irregular in someone’s eyes anyway.

Is there another school that would be appropriate or possible?

[quote=“ironlady”]Problem is, even if he goes the administrative appeal route, he will have pissed off the people in the department. That means that even if he is reinstated, he will NOT graduate successfully anyway, and his life will be made a Living Hell for the remainder of his tenure at that school.

IMHO the best solution is to offer to quietly resign from the school if his student status is somehow reinstated with no prejudice, then TRANSFER as a foreign student (not having received a degree in the ROC). I’m not a lawyer and don’t know the regulations that well, but I’m trying to think of a way that gives the university something (yes, they reportedly f*ed this one up, but you still have to give them something to get something) while preserving the OP’s right/option to continue his schooling in the ROC. This would probably be highly irregular, but any solution to this issue will be irregular in someone’s eyes anyway.

Is there another school that would be appropriate or possible?[/quote]
Sounds like a total “face saving circus”. The more I learn about Taiwan unis the more I feel I’d be better off getting my masters through UNISA (Distance education) and going back to the republic for a PhD.
Seems to me, other than a degree in translation (where you’re specialising in Chinese to English or vice versa) or Chinese Lit it isn’t really worth the hassle to get a degree here what with all the side show farces.

I might be wrong, but from what I’ve read on the forum over the last few years and from what MBA grads at NCKU and a US mate that studied at National Tainan U told me, it seems more trouble than it’s worth. :2cents:

OP, what school are you in? I’ll come play translator if you’re NCKU.

[quote=“bismarck”][quote=“ironlady”]Problem is, even if he goes the administrative appeal route, he will have pissed off the people in the department. That means that even if he is reinstated, he will NOT graduate successfully anyway, and his life will be made a Living Hell for the remainder of his tenure at that school.

IMHO the best solution is to offer to quietly resign from the school if his student status is somehow reinstated with no prejudice, then TRANSFER as a foreign student (not having received a degree in the ROC). I’m not a lawyer and don’t know the regulations that well, but I’m trying to think of a way that gives the university something (yes, they reportedly f*ed this one up, but you still have to give them something to get something) while preserving the OP’s right/option to continue his schooling in the ROC. This would probably be highly irregular, but any solution to this issue will be irregular in someone’s eyes anyway.

Is there another school that would be appropriate or possible?[/quote]
Sounds like a total “face saving circus”. The more I learn about Taiwan unis the more I feel I’d be better off getting my masters through UNISA (Distance education) and going back to the republic for a PhD.
Seems to me, other than a degree in translation (where you’re specialising in Chinese to English or vice versa) or Chinese Lit it isn’t really worth the hassle to get a degree here what with all the side show farces.

I might be wrong, but from what I’ve read on the forum over the last few years and from what MBA grads at NCKU and a US mate that studied at National Tainan U told me, it seems more trouble than it’s worth. :2cents:[/quote]

Bismark,

It is actually not that bad. Just as in daily living, most of the time, unless you run into trouble, your studies will proceed smoothly and you will not be caught in a face saving trap. Most of the time, it is not a hassle, but rather teh mayority of Taiwanese university personnell will try their best to make your life as easy as possible. Of course, you should keep both eyes wide open as if there is a mistake, it will be pinned on you, and under no circunstances you should expect a “superior” -dean, for instance- to take responsibility for any mistakes. You should also learn how to handle those instances, as blame shifting and hiding all evidence is the first automatic move here. But that is the same as in the local workplace, and it is part of the “colorful” and particular cultural characteristics of most work environments here. Face saving is vital, whether it is your neighbors, your coworkers, your drinking bar buddies.

Plus, dunno about you, but back home, academia is just as zealous about face saving as here in Taiwan. Man, they made my life impossible because I chose linguistics instead of literature, as my professors wanted. It is just something you have to deal with.

I reckon you’re probably right. Best to keep your nose extra clean, sort of thing. With studies and life here in general.

Funnily enough, I’m only really starting to learn that now.

Back home I found things to be quite different. Then again, a lot may have changed since I last went to a uni back home…

IL, Bis, Tsuki, Icon and all who took time to view this thread,

thx so much. My own experiences prev to this case and almost everything I’ve heard from you guys

I usually handle things on my own and am reluctant to ask for help/advice. Part of it is that I am really stubborn when I know that I am right and other people are using/abusing the power of their positions to lie, conceal evidence, shift blame for their actions onto me (or others). That kind of $hit really :fume:s me

I also hate to accept reality and concede that I am not “an army of one”. However, my victories often tend to be rather Pyrrhic.

Or in local idiom, Ah Q-like. There is some difference in the two, I think, but sure someone else can explain that one better.

I will try and post some more details but am having top consider carefully before posting info that could be construed as
“damaging the reputation of the University, it’s personnel, students…” or soemthing like that. That’s stragith expulsion waiting for you, if you say the wrong thing and they don’t like it.
:astonished:

thanks again to all for support.

my next post will be soemthing special and happy. re my daughter’s recent appearance on TV. :slight_smile:

br

UJ

[quote]I will try and post some more details but am having top consider carefully before posting info that could be construed as
“damaging the reputation of the University, it’s personnel, students…” or soemthing like that. That’s stragith expulsion waiting for you, if you say the wrong thing and they don’t like it.[/quote]
Just do as they do. Deny, deny, deny – presumably you’re not registered at the school as “Uncle Jamie.” :laughing:

:notworthy: ah sandman,

thx for the thought, which is probably at least half made in the jesting spirit of “if you cant beat em, join em”.

My email in school info is “unclejamie…”, so wouldnt be very plausible. Also, it is SO not my style to deny my own words/actions. :noway:

So, I will put up a more complete version of situation, a la ZD
(btw, his situation does make me feel very fortunate in comparison)

We really do need to stand up for our rights. And by “we”, I mean all the average folks who have to fight for soemtimes the most basic rights, while rich/connected scumbags just call daddy or their lwayers to “fix” any issues that arise.

Plus, it is much easier to have a consistent story if you make it the truth. Lying often seems like such a hassle. I often just tell folks what I think and don’t make excuses. Results would suggest I should allow others to save face more often. But it seems that when I give others 2nd chances, they often abuse those chances.

BTW, has anyone been sued for their postings on f.com? i know there have been threats and warnings and such.

But, has anyone actually been charged over posted material here on f.com? I have read some libel/slander cases that made the news here and the laws/enforcement of laws both seem to be like so many things here, dangerously inconsistent both in content and enforcement.

UJ

I was extensively threatened for posts made in 2002, but all their posturing came to nothing (plus, I had the inconvenient fact that I was telling the truth about their operations on my side… :wink: ). It can be scary and unsettling, though. And the people who went after me and a few others were not that well-connected. A university has more resources. I think you are doing well to be prudent in your public statements.

One question: where has the foreign student advisor been all this time? Fujen, where I did my MA, had a foreign student office that was supposed to help us out with that sort of thing. Or, failing that, is there someone at the Ministry of Education who handled your case at some point?

The most direct thing to do would be to ask for the department and the Registrar to sit down together and “fix” this. Be all “bu hao yi si” and you’re so sorry and you can’t believe you were so stupid and all that. YOU got the wrong form (in our script). You were worried about [insert plausible family crisis here] and your wife, who would normally help and support you in such htings, wasn’t able to, but since the Department had said things can be fixed, would Mr. Director [USE HIS PROPER TITLE!!!] of the Registrar’s Office possibly be able to help? Be sure to use the saying “At home, depend on your family; when abroad, depend on friends” and how you’ve found your university colleagues and faculty to be like your second family, etc. etc.

In other words, suck up and try to get the Department and the Registrar to play nicely together. That sounds like the easiest way to get re-instated without totally burning your bridges.

I would be interested in how it is possible to “loose” one’s status as as master’s student?

Without knowing anything about the background, I assume that they only want to help you and the entrance exam will be a formality. But of course that is just an assumption.

[Edit:] Apart from that, I would follow Ironlady’s suggestions.