Can you look past the illusionary nature of make-up?

[quote=“mjtaiwan”]I am a make-up junkie, not going to lie. However, men do appreciate more the clean-look face.
I don’t think I’ve been with anyone who hasn’t told me that make-up can only enhances natural beauty (although debatable, I’ve seen make-up miracles lol)

I think the problem in Taiwan is that women are not looking to enhance their natural beauty, but to actually change their facial features to resemble something else. Western women often use make up to make their eye color pop, conceal imperfections, even out complexion, etc. Here in Taiwan, it is all about having the HUGE eyes, the lighter skin, etc. I think this is the main issue.

Sometimes I see women on department stores with those HUGE fake eye-lashes, blue/green colored contact lenses, and on top of that, too much blush and/or overdrawn lips… and I just want to tell them they’re beautiful Asian women and should embrace it instead of trying to look Caucasian.[/quote]

Asian and white peoples not think same same beauty.
In Thailand white skin=beauty, black skin=ugly.
But farang like Thai girl have black skin.
So Thai people think farang little stupid always marry ugly girl!
I think Taiwan same same, Taiwan people think white skin=beauty.
So can buy a cream and makeup make skin white.

[quote=“sam_wong”][quote=“mjtaiwan”]I am a make-up junkie, not going to lie. However, men do appreciate more the clean-look face.
I don’t think I’ve been with anyone who hasn’t told me that make-up can only enhances natural beauty (although debatable, I’ve seen make-up miracles lol)

I think the problem in Taiwan is that women are not looking to enhance their natural beauty, but to actually change their facial features to resemble something else. Western women often use make up to make their eye color pop, conceal imperfections, even out complexion, etc. Here in Taiwan, it is all about having the HUGE eyes, the lighter skin, etc. I think this is the main issue.

Sometimes I see women on department stores with those HUGE fake eye-lashes, blue/green colored contact lenses, and on top of that, too much blush and/or overdrawn lips… and I just want to tell them they’re beautiful Asian women and should embrace it instead of trying to look Caucasian.[/quote]

Asian and white peoples not think same same beauty.
In Thailand white skin=beauty, black skin=ugly.
But farang like Thai girl have black skin.
So Thai people think farang little stupid always marry ugly girl!
I think Taiwan same same, Taiwan people think white skin=beauty.
So can buy a cream and makeup make skin white.[/quote]

I don’t know if you don’t understand what I’m trying to say, but my point is that people should accept themselves and try to enhance their natural beauty, instead of trying to be something they’re not a.k.a. a Taiwanese woman trying to look Caucasian, a Caucasian girl trying to look Middle-Eastern, etc.

[quote=“mjtaiwan”][
I don’t know if you don’t understand what I’m trying to say, but my point is that people should accept themselves and try to enhance their natural beauty, instead of trying to be something they’re not a.k.a. a Taiwanese woman trying to look Caucasian, a Caucasian girl trying to look Middle-Eastern, etc.[/quote]

Your point is exactly the opposite of what most East Asian girls are taught.

I had quite a shock when I based my entire lesson on “beauty and image” for my class of high school girls. Very well-educated, fluent in English.
I completely took for granted that they are taught that beauty is on the inside and the images of people drastically changing themselve is unhealthy.
Had them write me an essay on their perception of beauty and if they think the images portrayed by the media of dyed hair, false eyes, and plastic surgery is a good thing for girls.

Response of one girl: “Um… I don’t know how to answer cause my mother is a plastic surgeon you are talking about.”
Me: :astonished: :s :doh: “Well… ok, but I’m sure she thinks you are perfect without the surgery. It is a job. But my question is do you think its healthy for girls’ self-esteem?”
Girl: “My mother wants to give my little brother the surgery to make his eyes more Western and less slanty.”
Me: poker face

[quote=“Lili”][quote=“mjtaiwan”][
I don’t know if you don’t understand what I’m trying to say, but my point is that people should accept themselves and try to enhance their natural beauty, instead of trying to be something they’re not a.k.a. a Taiwanese woman trying to look Caucasian, a Caucasian girl trying to look Middle-Eastern, etc.[/quote]

Your point is exactly the opposite of what most East Asian girls are taught.

I had quite a shock when I based my entire lesson on “beauty and image” for my class of high school girls. Very well-educated, fluent in English.
I completely took for granted that they are taught that beauty is on the inside and the images of people drastically changing themselve is unhealthy.
Had them write me an essay on their perception of beauty and if they think the images portrayed by the media of dyed hair, false eyes, and plastic surgery is a good thing for girls.

Response of one girl: “Um… I don’t know how to answer cause my mother is a plastic surgeon you are talking about.”
Me: :astonished: :s :doh: “Well… ok, but I’m sure she thinks you are perfect without the surgery. It is a job. But my question is do you think its healthy for girls’ self-esteem?”
Girl: “My mother wants to give my little brother the surgery to make his eyes more Western and less slanty.”
Me: poker face[/quote]

I am aware of this.
I have a friend who got the eye surgery to make her eyes look bigger. I met her after the surgery, and she showed me a before picture; in all honesty, I didn’t really see that much of a change (if at all). She was a stunning Taiwanese woman before, and she remains to be one.

I also recall my first semester of uni here when I lived in the dorms. One of my roommate and her friends invited me for dinner and then we rented a Thai horror movie and watched it in our dorm. At one point, I commented how attractive the lead male character was. They all gave me a stare and told me they didn’t like him because they like guys with “big eyes”. The man in question was stunning from head to toe, but just because he didn’t have Caucasian features, he wasn’t hot.

I think women are brainwashed to scrutinize the way they look, and I am no exception. However, I notice that in the west is “look the best you can” and not “pretend you’re from a different race”. I’ve been living here for 4+ years, and I know that women are taught that Caucasian features are the norm for beauty. However, it doesn’t mean that it is correct and that, if possible, it should be changed. I am aware of the concept of beauty forced into Asian women, but I don’t agree with it.

Back to the OP, I think the whole issue with Taiwanese women looking so different with make-up than without it is because they basically are using so many products to change the way they look to look more Caucasian. The thick fake eye lashes, the eyelid glue, the fake contacts, even hair wigs… take all that away, and you do have a woman who looks drastically different. In the case of non-Asian women or Asian women who do not go through the whole “Westernization” issue with make up… a man will wake up the next morning and say “hey! she has spots on her face, scars, etc. but basically she looks the same”

Hmm… I could be wrong but I’ve never been under the impression that Taiwanese girls are trying to look Caucasian. It seems that they desire a lot of features that some Caucasians have like white skin, tall noses, long eyelashes, etc., but I have never felt they are looking to white people as their ideal beauty, rather, they look to other Asians who have these features, whether natural or not. What do you think?

Hmm… I could be wrong but I’ve never been under the impression that Taiwanese girls are trying to look Caucasian. It seems that they desire a lot of features that some Caucasians have like white skin, tall noses, long eyelashes, etc., but I have never felt they are looking to white people as their ideal beauty, rather, they look to other Asians who have these features, whether natural or not. What do you think?[/quote]

I knew a female plastic surgeon in Taiwan. I was having dinner with her and one of her head nurses one night and she turned to me and said, “Your nose is our dream!” Funny.

Yes, I agree that Taiwanese women try to make themselves look more Caucasian. The eye and nose surgeries, the surgery where they get their jaw lines filed down for a slimmer face (to get rid of ‘farm face’ as I remember them calling it), the skin whitening, breast enhancement, colored contacts, dyed hair, etc. etc. etc.

My coworker’s Thai wife and her entire family just had the eye surgery done back in Thailand. I think it makes her look strange; she was pretty before and still is, but it is obvious that she had her eyes done. It doesn’t look natural. I thought the same thing of the few Taiwanese that I saw who had had the same surgery. It’s really obvious to me.

Lots of women wear colored contacts, color their hair, etc., but on an Asian woman it’s obvious sometimes that these things are not natural. That’s why it looks especially fake on them.

At the same time, there’s also an obsession with sites that expose celebrities who have had plastic surgery with before and after shots. Often, the before shots are high school photos of the stars. That just seems like the flip side of the same coin because the people engaging in all of that are still buying into celebrity, media notions of beauty, etc.

Not pretend from different race?
What about all black people try to look white?
Want light skin, straight hair, blonde hair etc.
Like Beyonce, Maria Carey etc.
I think same same.

Since when was Maria Carey considered ‘black’? :ohreally: She’s about one-quarter non-Anglo-Saxon white … or something. Although it is odd how, when you have that kind of indeterminate racial background, you feel compelled to ‘become’ one thing or the other.

Anyway, I think sam_wong just proved he’s not an trolling English teacher. :wink: He might even be Taiwanese.

[quote=“sam_wong”]Not pretend from different race?
What about all black people try to look white?
Want light skin, straight hair, blonde hair etc.
Like Beyonce, Maria Carey etc.
I think same same.[/quote]

Of course it is the same thing, but this isn’t a thread about black women wanting to look different, is it? Otherwise, I would have brought it up. In fact, I did mention that women should embrace their own race and the features that come with it, and that includes all races.

True, but in the end, why does this happen? Because there has been an ideal of beauty engraved into women’s mind that white skin, tall noses, big eyes, etc are “desirable” traits to have in order to be attractive.
As far as skin color goes, I’ve seen women in Taiwan being naturally lighter and others really dark, and all the shades in between.
Noses? Some Taiwanese women have tall noses, but usually Asian women have different noses. So why is it that “tall noses” are desirable in Taiwan other than the influence of the media and the portrayal of Caucasian features as more attractive?

I am not bashing Asian women, in fact, I think the feature they most want to change about themselves is so attractive; I think Asian eyes are so beautiful, yet here people want to have huge doll eyes.

Everyone want to look like manga girl from Japan.
And do silly thing like Japanese girl.
Hello Kitty, wave two finger, speak squeaking voice like mouse.
(Hello Kitty not bite squeaking mouse because Kitty no have mouth!)
I think copy Japan, not copy America.
(But maybe Japan copy America 1960s make manga).

The white skin idea has been around for a long time. In fact the only Chinese beauty that I’ve heard of that had dark skin seems to be 虞姬. Or so I was told by my middle school teacher who is quite learned in Chinese literature and history. He might be trolling me since I couldn’t find anything about that, it doesn’t help that ancient Chinese is filled with metaphors.

There could be the “Caucasian media brain washing” going on; that must be before or during my parent’s time. My parents already do share some of the “modern Taiwanese beauty standard”, but TV wasn’t a big part of their childhood. I can’t really tell from my grandparent’s; we grand kids all look handsome/beautiful to them. Manga and anime didn’t really have a very big influence on Taiwan at the time so I doubt it was the Japanese’s fault in the beginning. Today anime culture is looked down upon in Taiwan which you can tell from the media portraying otaku like they are scums that shouldn’t exist.

Personally I never thought that they are trying to be another race. At the very least I’ve never heard of any girl around me saying that she wanted to look like Jessica Alba, they’d say she look beautiful but that’s it, it’s usually another Asian star/model. We already have our own beauty standard, the media can only fit so much in an already accepted range. But this is all guess work.

The thing about really big eyes is just bizarre. They certainly don’t look Western. I don’t know any Westerner who has eyes like that.

xamd: You’re missing mjtaiwan’s point. Her point is that there’s a certain image of beauty. Those close to the epicentre of the fashion industry in Asia aspire to that, and are aware of it. It doesn’t matter that those further out from the epicentre aren’t aware that they’re copying someone who is copying someone else. They’re still participating in the process, in this case, trying to appear like Westerners (and a very particular image of Western beauty at that). Have you seen the movie The Devil Wears Prada? This scene is what I’m thinking of:

It’s like that.

[quote=“sam_wong”]Everyone want to look like manga girl from Japan.
And do silly thing like Japanese girl.
Hello Kitty, wave two finger, speak squeaking voice like mouse.
(Hello Kitty not bite squeaking mouse because Kitty no have mouth!)
I think copy Japan, not copy America.
(But maybe Japan copy America 1960s make manga).[/quote]

Japanese manga… have you noticed how they have huge ridiculously round eyes (which is a Caucasian feature, exaggerated to the point that not even a Caucasian eye naturally looks like this).
I am not saying women here are saying “I want to look white”, but it is a chain reaction that in the end, leads to people looking to have more Western features.

Ok, since you’ve been answering every post I make… can I ask you why do women want to have bigger eyes, to the point they use fake eyelashes, eye glue, etc?
Why do women want to change their eye color and wear colored contact lenses?

Thank you! This thread made me realize I completely lack eloquence to say what my brain is thinknig :doh:

[quote=“xamd”]The white skin idea has been around for a long time…

Personally I never thought that they are trying to be another race. At the very least I’ve never heard of any girl around me saying that she wanted to look like Jessica Alba, they’d say she look beautiful but that’s it, it’s usually another Asian star/model. We already have our own beauty standard, the media can only fit so much in an already accepted range. But this is all guess work.[/quote]

I agree with you two. I do not think it is to do with looking White'. Many people thinking East Asians are trying to look White’ are White themselves and looking at this behaviour through a White lens. Generally White people in the west are sent a message that White beauty is superior and is placed on a pedestal by the rest of the world, therefore it is only natural that when anyone who isn’t White changes their features, they must be trying to look White. Never mind that White people are not the only race to possess wide eyes, high nose bridges or pale skin. There are 100% East Asian people who have these features too.

Half of all Chinese, a third of Japanese and a quarter of Koreans are born with double eyelids. I wonder if anyone has noticed that, even when an East Asian gets the surgery to turn their monolids into double eyelids, they still keep their epicanthic folds in the corners, the extra fat in their eyelids, their less prominent brow ridges and therefore still look distinctively East Asian? Or that, when they get a nose job, they do not increase the length, sharpen the blunt tip or change the roundness of their nostrils, so their nose still looks East Asian? Or that there are plenty of East Asian people that have skin naturally paler than White people? I would’ve thought that, if these girls with so much money to spend on surgery really wanted to look White, they would have done a good enough job that people cannot tell they are `an East Asian trying to look White’. People would assume they are White! :laughing:

Assumptions of other races wanting to look White always leaves a bad taste in my mouth because it’s almost like people are saying being White is so great, there can’t possibly be another explanation for members of other races changing their appearances. It gives me the feeling that people who are not White are only allowed to be beautiful in a way that matches White stereotypes of that race. e.g. East Asian women have to have slanted eyes, sleek black hair and delicate, petite figures. If they deviate from this they hate their own race and are trying to be White. I’ve never heard of a White woman with plastic surgery, who dyes and curls/straightens her hair, wears coloured contacts and gets a tan being told she is trying to be another race, even when her look is so unnatural for her.

Complete strawman. Most plastic surgery and most fashion, regardless of who is doing it and why, is retarded. It has nothing to do with being white, though I do think a lot of what people are trying to do is that. It’s just about buying into retardation by choice. End of story.

Piffle, thanks for phrasing and explaining so well what’s been bugging me for a long time.

I’m going to school someone next time using your arguments :smiley:

“Look white” not mean “look white same America girl”.
(That America racist think everything in world all about America).
It mean look white same Japan manga girl.
Japan people think white skin= beauty, not white skin= American.
Taiwan before part of Japan, and Taiwan culture have big % Japan.

Is strawman same troll, smurf?
I think many people strawman too much.

Also, you use “retard”.
Someone say bad word this forum, cannot use.

[quote=“sam_wong”]“Look white” not mean “look white same America girl”.
(That America racist think everything in world all about America).
It mean look white same Japan manga girl.
Japan people think white skin= beauty, not white skin= American.
Taiwan before part of Japan, and Taiwan culture have big % Japan.[/quote]

Sam, why do the Japanese love tentacle porn so much? Is it because they love fresh seafood?