Canada- Liberal Party Convention

-[quote] A Saturday of certain political intrigue awaited Liberal delegates after horse-trading and floor-crossing erupted before leadership contenders finished their final pitches.

The first-ballot results, announced just after midnight, showed none of the top four has picked up significant momentum since delegates were chosen two months ago.

Only Stephane Dion - who inched up into third, a mere two votes ahead of Gerard Kennedy - could claim some modest growth, scoring a scant 1.8 percentage point increase in his share of delegate support to reach 17.8 per cent.

Front-runner Michael Ignatieff maintained a firm but not insurmountable lead with 29.3 per cent, the exact same share of delegates he claimed in late September. Bob Rae was up a mere two-tenths of a percentage point, at 20.3 per cent. Kennedy’s support rose by the same amount to 17.7 per cent.

The results point to a frenetic day of bargaining and backroom wheedling at a convention that is still wide open.

“This is going to be pandemonium,” predicted one veteran organizer.[/quote]

ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/0612 … ibs_leader

With four other minor contenders whose delegates they may be able to deliver to one of the front-runners, depending on what’s on offer.

Now that’s what a political convention should be- frantic wheeling and dealing, delegates being squeezed, delegates squeezing whatever they can get, deals behind closed doors, betrayals and treachery…politics at its finest

My personal preference is the one-member-one-vote method.

I’m rooting for Bob Rae, I even have a campaign slogan he can use in the next federal election:

He’ll do for Canada what he did to Ontario

Stephane Dion? How the heck did that happen???

He got most of the votes from Kennedy after the second ballot, which resulted in springing Dion to the front and unseating Rae. Rae’s delegates then split more or less half/half between Dion and Ignatieff, but since Dion was in the lead, he claimed the top prize.

The possibility of Dion being the eventual winner has been talked about. He was not seen as the front runner, but was seen as everyone’s favourite second choice. So as other candidates fell, most of their votes went to their “favourite second choice” and shot Dion into the lead and ultimately into being the new leader.

I’m pleased. Rae is practically unelectable as a federal leader, and Ignatieff only parachuted in, like, yesterday. Plus, Dion’s an environmentalist. That’s way cool. And this is something the party can campaign on, which help, if only a little bit.

Under his tenure as federal environment minister, far from reducing its greenhouse gas emissions as it was supposed to under the Kyoto accord, Canada’s emissions increased by 20%. How exactly is campaigning on that going to help?

Dion needs to do more than just be an environmentalist.

It’s just been revealed (to me, at least) that Dion is a citizen of France. Oooh…I wonder how’s that going to play out.

[quote=“sjcma”]It’s just been revealed (to me, at least) that Dion is a citizen of France. Oooh…I wonder how’s that going to play out.[/quote] The GG gave up her French citizenship after the public outcry. From what I’ve read in the media, it’s trendy for Francophone elites to obtain French citizenship, it makes them feel less provincial. I am not aware of any law that says a member of parliament, or prime minister, cannot have dual citizenship.

Nevertheless, I doubt it will play well with the public. If Dion waits until there’s a public outcry, he may be shooting himself in the foot. Expect the Tories to make it an issue – in the middle of the next election, of course.

Looks like Dion’s dual citizenship is already becoming an issue – with the press!

Foolishness.

[quote]We are not questioning Dion’s loyalty to Canada because he holds dual Canadian/French citizenship, due to the fact his mother was born in France.

Dion has fought honourably for Canada against Quebec separatists. His loyalty is above reproach.

But it’s not a question of loyalty. It’s an issue of perception.[/quote]

If it’s not a question of loyalty, but of perception, then it’s only an apparent problem. I question the loyalty of many politicians, not because they hold dual citizenship, but because they’re beholden to particular narrow interest groups (perhaps only their own good) rather than the public good. Who do you think typically tends to do greater harm, politicians serving foreign interests, or particular domestic interests?

In my books, it’s a non-issue.

Actually, I was referring to this:

I’m assuming they mean reporters other than their columnist.

However, this is just as foolish:

[quote=“The Toronto Star”]Faced with questions on whether he should relinquish his French citizenship because of his new position, Dion — who is one of Canada’s leading defenders of federalism — shrugged and asked why.

“If nobody is questioning my loyalty, what is the point?” he said, adding that anyone who doubts his commitment to Canada should keep their “opinions to themselves.”[/quote]

And this is the height of foolishness:

[quote=“The Toronto Star”]…Dion said, adding that it was “impossible” that he might have divided loyalties.[/quote] It may be unlikely, but it is not impossible. As I recall, flight, space travel, and breaking the sound barrier were also impossible at one time.

In politics, perception is everything. Why give his opponents a stick with which to beat him?

Toronto Star article.

Depends on the interest I suppose, doesn’t it?

If the foreign interest is a foreign country that can grow a crop more efficiently than the canadian Canadian lobby representing domestic producers of that crop, then it does seem like a non-issue – clearly the foreign interest group wins: better for the foreign farmers, better for Canadian consumers of that crop, and only worse for the small segment of Canadians who are trying to use their lobbying power to advance a policy that is overall-worse for everyone but themselves. France is probably not an example of this. And yet the fact remains that a politician beholdent to a domestic interest group is not --ipso facto-- preferable to one beholden to a foreign interest group. Plenty of domestic interest groups are capable of doing far greater harm to their fellow citizens than a given foreign interest group would be.

(And before you say it – yes, I note that you said ‘tends to do greater harm’. So pointing out that it can also go the other way is not an argument against the generalization. But I think my point is worth noting anyway. Far too many people operate under the mistaken assumption that corrupt interests at home are necessarily less harmful than corrupt interest abroad – and that’s certainly not the case. :wink: )

I would like to ask those for whom Dion’s dual citizenship is a non-issue what their response would have been had Stephen Harper signed the Canada-US softwood lumber agreement as a dual Canadian-American citizen. True, Dion is not prime minister, but he aspires to be, and has not indicated he would give up his dual citizen status even if he became prime minister.

Jaboney, do you really not see a problem here, or is it a case of not worrying until there is a problem? Remember, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. In Canada, a prime minister with a majority government has plenipontentiary power. They can and do thumb their noses (or in the case of PET, flip the bird) at the public once the ballots are counted . It’s far better to deal with this now.

A prime minister with dual citizenship is not just some shmuck who’s gone home to open a flying-carpet store. He represents Canada and its interests, and brokers deals with foreign governments who sometimes have conflicting interests. His office must be beyond reproach.

[quote=“Taichung Social Club”]this is just as foolish:

[quote=“The Toronto Star”]Faced with questions on whether he should relinquish his French citizenship because of his new position, Dion — who is one of Canada’s leading defenders of federalism — shrugged and asked why.

“If nobody is questioning my loyalty, what is the point?” he said, adding that anyone who doubts his commitment to Canada should keep their “opinions to themselves.”[/quote]

And this is the height of foolishness:

[quote=“The Toronto Star”]…Dion said, adding that it was “impossible” that he might have divided loyalties.[/quote] It may be unlikely, but it is not impossible. As I recall, flight, space travel, and breaking the sound barrier were also impossible at one time.

In politics, perception is everything. Why give his opponents a stick with which to beat him?[/quote]

I think the dual citizenship issue is a result of parochial political horizons, and therefore not a genuine issue.

I disagree with the conventional wisdom that, in politics, perception is everything. In selling a policy position–in bamboozling enough people to pass it–that may be true. But if politics is about goals as well as scoring points, about building institutions, not just capturing them, then it’s not. Why give his opponents a stick to beat him with? Because some things are worth fighting over? I didn’t much like Chretien, and I don’t like Harper’s policies, but I have to give both of them credit for having the courage to take unpopular stands. (I’d like both more if the had the humility and honesty to acknowledge when they took the wrong stands.) One of the alternatives to that is Martin. Yuck.

A point I hadn’t considered before first responding. This is (ought to be) a non-issue, but Dion’s dismissal of it is a mistake. He’s passing up a glorious opportunity to put some meat on the bones of that Quebecois-are-a-nation-within-Canada motion. (Funny that the Bloc has no problem with Dion’s dual citizenship, but then, in addition to a lot of closed-minded bigots, they also have some of the most imaginative and progressive minds in their camp.) Dion could use the challenges leveled on this issue to launch a serious debate on the nature, rights, and responsibilities of citizenship in a more mobile, porous, fluid world… particularly on the ability of individuals to rise above parochial political horizons, to be more expansive in outlook without neglecting their obligations at/to home. Having won a rhetorical victory over the Bloc, it’d be nice to pick up that ball, run with it, and score some meaningful points.

I seriously do not see a problem, but can’t answer at length now. But (the essence of) my reasoning is sketched out above (and elsewhere).

Ok, now I’ve got a bit of time.

Tell me if the following assumptions are reasonable:

[color=blue]1. We can distinguish between the duties of a) citizen, b) partisan political leader, c) political office holder.[/color]
Specifically:
i) while public spiritedness is laudable, a citizen is free to pursue his private interests, so far as these do not fall afoul of specifically proscribed acts.
ii) in the service of his office, a partisan political leader is bound to serve the interests of his constituency, and this responsibility imposes constraints on his freedom to pursue private interests.
iii) in the service of his office, a political office holder is bound to serve the interests of state and nation, and this responsibility imposes constraints on his freedom to pursue both partisan political ends and private interests.

[color=blue]2. People naturally, and rightly, have multiple loyalties. Self identity is plural.[/color]
[color=black](I know that this will be a contentious point, but give it a sympathetic reading, please.)[/color]
To take an example from Sen…[quote=“Amartya Sen”]The same person can, for example, be a British citizen, of Malaysian origin, with Chinese racial characteristics, a stockbroker, a nonvegetarian, an asthmatic, a linguist, a bodybuilder, a poet, an opponent of abortion, a bird-watcher, an astrologer, and one who believes that God created Darwin to test the gullible.[/quote] [color=black]Thus far, I believe this point is both robust, and insignificant. Agreed?[/color]

[color=blue]3. In particular situations, particular aspects of self will naturally be relevant, or not.[/color] If I’m going to dinner with a group of vegetarians, my identity as a carnivore is relevant, whereas my identity as a hockey player is not.

[color=blue]4. In particular situations, which aspect of self will acquire significance is a matter of choice.[/color] Looking at Marilyn Monroe’s Playboy centerfold, the character of my experience will vary according to the aspect of self that is emphasized: do I approach the image as a) a red-blooded male, b) an aesthetic, c) a (poor) student of photography, d) a student of history (first Playmate, after all).

In some situations, the choice regarding which aspect of my self will be emphasized will not be my choice. If my girlfriend sees me looking at Marilyn’s centerfold, she’ll immediate define me as a) a red-blooded male (and a bastardly one at that). Sexism, racism, and religious bigotry falls into this category.

[color=blue]5. Identities can be contrasting or noncontrasting.[/color] Contrasting identities are those dealing with the same kind of membership, or addressing the same issue. A person may be politically liberal and religiously conservative, without conflict. Or, depending on the specifics of his commitments, or scope and ambition of the political/ religious communities to which he subscribes, they may conflict on specific issues. If there’s a conflict, a choice will have to be made. That choice may affect his standing in one or both communities.

[color=black]Thus far, fair enough?[/color]

Historically, there are few examples of individuals successfully negotiating divided state-loyalties. (One example comes to mind: John Kenneth Galbraith was once appointed by Canada and the US to what was supposed to be a two-person, international commission to iron out an issue of aviation and border controls. He wore both hats. But that’s a nonzero sum situation.)

However, there are many examples of individuals having divided state-religion loyalties. These differences were worth dying over, and thus non-trivial. They continue to be an issue… though not often one of life and death. (I note that the Governor-General cannot, by definition, be a Catholic. An archaic hangover of British Protestant-Catholic conflicts, but a pertinent echo of past bitterness on the point of divided loyalties.) I think state-religion tensions provide an excellent analogy for thinking through divided state-loyalties.

Consider the position of a politically liberal person who belongs to the Roman Catholic Church. (For the thought experiment I assume that his status as a committed Catholic is roughly analogous to state citizenship.) That person may be torn, between a political creed of non-interference in the lives of others, and a religious commitment to oppose abortion. That’s a private matter of identity conflict. The choice to be made is a private matter. But, that same person may be subject to a state prohibition on protests within sight of an abortion clinic, and a Church edict to protect the innocent; the one backed by judicial penalties (prison), the other with ecclesiastical penalties (excommunication). In that case, others are going to attempt to impose a primary identity on the individual. But, while society at large recognizes the authority of the state, the choice and consequences fall on the individual citizen/ congregation member. (Apparently a zero sum situation… one party’s going to lose… and possibly seek retribution.)

The position of a political office holder who is a member of the Roman Catholic Church is different. In the exercise of a private commitment to the Church, he is subject to the same constrain (1. iii, above) that applies to his private interests and partisan ends: “in the service of his office, a political office holder is bound to serve the interests of state and nation, and this responsibility imposes constraints on his freedom to pursue both partisan political ends and private interests.” His religious commitments may, legitimately (point 3, above), inform his deliberations, but any decision must speak to the interests of the constituency he serves (and speak in its particular terms). This is the position taken by Catholic PMs Chretien and Martin with regards to same-sex marriage. The congregations to which they belong attempted to exert pressure, but as political office holders they ruled such private pressures out of order… in Martin’s case, apparently, with great difficulty. I believe that this is essentially the same position VP Cheney finds himself in. His daughter considers herself married to her female partner–and is now expecting a child, congrats to them–but his party is opposed to same sex marriage and the state does not recognize such a union. The only difference, I believe, is that he’s recognizing a lesser constraint 1. ii) “in the service of his office, a partisan political leader is bound to serve the interests of his constituency, and this responsibility imposes constraints on his freedom to pursue private interests.”

Now, if society can accept political leaders exercising this kind of discretion, choosing between deep political and religious commitments on different levels of responsibility, why not accept the analogous situation: being a political office holder in one constituency and a citizen in another? Analogous choices are made by political figures with business interests all the time, albeit with differing levels of safeguards. And seriously, what’s the greater danger, private financial interests… say, former German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder negotiating with the Russians before the end of his political career and taking over the Northern European Gas Pipeline, or former PM Chretien dealing with the Chinese before (while?) setting up his own financial kingdom… or private citizenship? I know that national service is supposed to trump private concerns, and that’s the way it’s often seen (point 4) but seriously…?

Jaboney, while there are many that can accept the finer nuances of divided loyalties, for some, it’s a black and white issue. In politics, one votes according to one’s perceptions and for those who perceive this divided loyalty, in terms of citizenship, to be irreconcilable to being the prime minister of the country, then they will cast their vote accordingly. In a very plausible scenario where the Liberals and the Conservatives are running neck to neck in the next election, this small minority (I’m guessing it would be small, but it may be larger) may very well hand the government to the Conservatives when it may have gone towards the Liberals instead.

[quote=“sjcma”]Jaboney, while there are many that can accept the finer nuances of divided loyalties, for some, it’s a black and white issue. In politics, one votes according to one’s perceptions and for those who perceive this divided loyalty, in terms of citizenship, to be irreconcilable to being the prime minister of the country, then they will cast their vote accordingly. In a very plausible scenario where the Liberals and the Conservatives are running neck to neck in the next election, this small minority (I’m guessing it would be small, but it may be larger) may very well hand the government to the Conservatives when it may have gone towards the Liberals instead.[/quote] Well said. We shouldn’t forget the public outcry when the GG was appointed. She also had dual citizenship, but she did the right thing and relinquished her French citizenhip - and her position is merely ceremonial!

Jaboney has stated previously that he doesn’t believe politics to be all about perceptions. However, that is exactly what it’s about, and there are examples a plenty:

Perception #1: The Liberals care about the environment, the Conservatives don’t.
This perception is carried by many because the Liberals comitted Canada to the Kyoto Accord, while the Conservatives have abandoned Kyoto in favour of their made-in-Canada solution.

The reality is that neither will achieve anything. The Liberals let greenhouse gas emissions rise 20% - 35%, depending on who one is quoting, proving beyond a doubt that Kyoto is just pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking. The Conservative’s solution isn’t any better. The only difference between the two is that the Conservatives plan to achieve nothing over 50 years while the Liberals hoped to achieve nothing by 2010.

Perception #2: Stephen Harper is a hypocrit for enticing David Emerson to cross the floor
I agree with this statement. The Conservatives cried foul when Belinda Stronach crossed the floor for a cabinet position, but then enticed Emerson to cross the floor to the Tory benches for a cabinet position.

On the other hand, the Liberals thought Belinda Stronach crossing the floor for a cabinet position was fair game, but then cried foul when Emerson crossed the floor to the Tories for a cabinet position.

Hypocrits all. But it stuck to Harper.

Percpetion #3: The Liberals have a national day care program, the Conservatives don’t
The Conservative national day care strategy: Give the money to parents and let them make the choice for themselves. It’s worth noting, this money has no restrictions or conditions attached to it. The individuals can do whatever they please with it.

The Liberal national day care program: Give the money to the provincial governments to do as they please. It’s worth noting, this money has no restrictions or conditions attached to it. The provinces can do whatever they please with it.

The fact of the matter is neither party has a national day care program. The difference is the Conservatives have never pretended they did.

I could go on, but I think I’ve made my point. There are some things in Jaboney’s last post that I would like to address, however, I won’t have time to do so until after the weekend.

I don’t deny the import role perception plays in politics, I deny that politics is or should be “all about perception”. None of the perception issues you outline above get my knickers in a twist.

I genuinely would like to read your considered response to my earlier posts.
Until then, there’s this:

[quote=“CBC”]Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion said he would renounce his French citizenship, albeit reluctantly, if it becomes an impediment in his quest to become prime minister.

“If it’s a problem for a significant number of Canadians and if it’s a liability that may keep Mr. Harper in power and prevent us … [from bringing] together more than any other country in the world: economic prosperity, social justice, environmental sustainability, then I will do this sad thing then, to renounce my French citizenship that I received from my mother,” Dion told CBC’s Peter Mansbridge.

“As everyone, I love my mother, I love everything she gave to me, including that. It’s part of me. I don’t see why it’s a problem.”
[…]
‘Not an issue for Turner’

He also pointed to former prime minister John Turner, who was born in England.

“It was not an issue for Mr. Turner. John Turner was prime minister of Canada with dual citizenship. At that time, nobody had problems with it.”[/quote]
(Of course, Turner wasn’t PM long enough for it to be an issue. :laughing: But Dion’s a long way from PM, and it’s already an issue.)
I think his approach to the issue is wrong. He should take a stand and make the difficult argument.

On another note, here’s an ugly side of Liberal Convention:

[quote=“Toronto Star”]Bob Rae was the target of anti-Semitic attacks during the Liberal leadership contest, motivated at least in part by the fact that his wife is Jewish.

Sources close to Rae say that his wife, Arlene Perly Rae, was approached during last weekend’s convention by a delegate who didn’t realize she was the candidate’s wife. The delegate told her not to vote for Rae “because his wife is Jewish.”

Perly Rae stonily informed the delegate that she was the wife in question. The delegate beat a hasty retreat.

The incident might have been shrugged off if it had been an isolated event. But Rae team insiders contend it was part of a larger pattern of anti-Semitic smears on Rae, who finished third.

A flyer was circulated electronically among convention delegates denouncing Rae for having once delivered a speech to the Jewish National Fund, a group the flyer said was complicit in “war crimes and ethnic cleansing.”

“Rae’s wife is a vice-president of the CJC (Canadian Jewish Congress), a lobby group which supports Israeli apartheid,” said the flyer in bold letters superimposed over a close-up of Rae’s face.

“Bob Rae supports Israeli apartheid. Don’t elect a leader who supports apartheid.”[/quote]

On his blog, Warren Kinsella also mentioned sitting on the train to Montreal, overhearing loud, already drunk Liberal delegates making slurs about Italian-Canadians and their representative candidate.

Identity politics: lovely as ever. :fume: