Canadians of Forumosa, I have a question

Are you not getting labour mobility and citizenship mixed up? Taiwan has relatively open labour mobility and yet restrictive citizenship in terms of renunciation requirements. Some jurisdictions such as Canada liberalize both, but that has had some negative money laundering and house pricing consequences.

This is an interesting question. Does liberal citizenship policy necessarily lead to an overheated property market and other social ills?

Or do problems with the property market stem from sh&tty housing policies / zoning stupidities and an immigration scheme that assumes rich people are good?

In the case of Canada, stop given rich people a fast way in. Wealth should not be a fast track to residency—unless, as Mulroney did, your goal is actually to heat up the property market while looking like a multiculturalist.

Guy

I would put a lot of the blame at federal Liberal governments that know who these newcomers will often vote for. It’s why on the left in the US, you had McGovern, Kerry, and liberal senators of every ilk vote to really cap Vietnamese boat people refugees in the late 1970s.

Why? Virulently anti-Communist and not necessarily Democratic Party voting.

All that, and then some

1 Like

I do not buy that it has anything to do with China as the ROC citizenship laws came into force before the PRC took control of China

Show me any countries in the world that has reciprocity on citizenship?

1 Like

Citizenship is the most exquisite expression of sovereign prerogative, it is an act of benevolence of the sovereign to confer the citizenship upon an alien and it id completely within the government’s (i.e. sovereign) discretion.

The right to nationality is only to prevent statelessness, but if u already hold any citizenship, then there is no right for you to acquire one, it is a concession.

Out of benevolence, the sovereign (i.e. the government) can set up rules and procedures to let alien to “naturalise”, but there is nothing which can override the discretion of the government.

U can satisfy all the requirements, but the government can refuse your application at any time.

There has never been a reciprocity for citizenship, you have the right to change your nationality but no right to be assured to have more nationalities than your natural/original one.

2 Likes

No. We need less people with dual passports and competing loyalties. The Canadian diaspora is large enough as it is.

Disagree on this. I have dual passports. I have degrees from the best universities money and brains can buy/earn. My global experiences make me stand out as a Canadian. Do we want parochial folk? Aren’t there already enough of those? IF you make us choose, we won’t chose the less dynamic location! A brain drain occurs as when Idi Amin kicked out the Indians in Uganda in the 1970s. Never good to make people choose.

If multiculturalism is the policy, don’t make people give up their identities. Lessen immigration slightly it if necessary to combat money laundering/house price increases but do not remove dual national possibility.

I don’t think @UnderArmor was endorsing an Idi Amin style ethnic purge. :thinking:

Guy

1 Like

I am not insinuating he was. I am saying that brain drains can then occur, with the most extreme being the Ugandan example.

The Uganda example is not “brain brain”; it’s an example of state-directed ethnic purging, a position I am pretty certain no one on this board is advocating.

Guy

2 Likes

Others disagree:
Worst brain drain happening internally - New Vision Official
Expulsion of Asians from Uganda - Wikipedia
David Shinn - African Migration and the Brain Drain (google.com)

This brain drain started in the 1970s during the Idi Amin regime when highly qualified professionals (mostly doctors) left the country.

Records show that the number of doctors in Uganda dropped from 978 to 574 between 1968 and 1974, while that of pharmacists fell from 116 to 15.

I am not disputing statistics like that. I am disputing the relevance of the Uganda example you raised for the issue(s) in this thread.

Guy

It’s the worst case example and is cited in academic journals as per the third link. Talks about Canadian and US contexts in the intro where the term was coined, and then brings up Amin in the African context. Did you read it?

I do not believe this is a policy in Taiwan. That’s why they have contract labor that has no pathway to PR or citizenship although they said care givers could apply in reality their employers wont pay them the salary requirement.

1 Like

And to give Taiwan credit, I can’t imagine them removing the dual national possibility for their citizens. It’s a good thing for Taiwan and a good thing for nations to offer if they truly value diversity.

It is why I don’t think Canada would ever restrict to one nationality. It would really go against diversity.

I have no degrees and not enough money. I do somehow to have been given a functioning brain. I have run a business in China and my own here. Worked for a government in an overseas posting. Would not be anywhere near your global experience. I also have more than one nationality but that has not helped me as a resident of Taiwan. I also have no customers in Taiwan. I came from a country that did not allow dual nationality for its citizens but did allow it for immigrants. So unfair lol It does now.

Does any of my experience make me stand out as an Australian? Not really. Having a Taibaozheng with working rights in China was pretty useful though lol.

Did Australia suffer much of a brain drain from me leaving? I would guess not one iota. I did send lot’s of students and immigrants to Australia when I was buying and selling people. So maybe the incoming money was the benefit as well as many of my student clients I processed for skilled migration after they returned to Taiwan. A money and brain drain for Taiwan yes.

We get what you mean but is that not relevant to Taiwan. Is there going to be a purge and deportation of immigrants and citizens here? Idi Amin was a blight on humanity. A human stain.

Yeah, I was responding to UnderArmor’s post that we need less people with dual passports and competing loyalties in the Canadian context. And mentioned this type of thinking has been behind brain drains in the past and gave brain drain examples in academic circles that highlighted Uganda and other brain drain examples. To place limitations reeks of nativism.

I think Taiwan’s policy is very flexible on that front and don’t have a problem with it. Ditto for the existing policy in Canada. But I wince every time I hear Conservative politicians in Canada (who I normally would support) mention they are considering restricting or would if they returned to power. It would cause me to change my vote…Liberal or more likely NDP :slight_smile:

I don’t really have a problem with Taiwan’s policy either. It would be nice if it changed but that is not my fight. I guess as some people say I got what I wanted and don’t care if others make the choice not to naturalize over the renunciation requirement.

I’ve always said renunciation is good for the soul.

Renunciation exacts a heavy toll if you cannot resume.
You others are not the only one cursed with choices.
I renounced my birth citizenship when there was no resumption possible.
The toughest choices require the strongest wills. The weak willed simply give up.

I like Mattaiou’s approach. If he succeeds a lot of people will owe him a lot. But I do wonder if they really want to be citizens of a country they claim will still even as citizens treat them like foreigners and not give them loans, of that as some have said citizenship here is worthless then bleat on how much they want it but only on “their terms” not on the terms Taiwan offers. Or have other people write they outside their own village people will not accept them as Taiwanese. Only foreigners have said this to me.

Funny thing today, I complained to FSC about Taiwan Co Op Bank. A lady calls me, she comments that my accent sounds like I am from Alishan. She is in Chiayi. I’m like yeah I’m a mountain man 山地人, she cracks up laughing. 山地人 is not very PC anymore.

Going to have a meeting with her tomorrow morning for my business account.

1 Like