I don’t think @UnderArmor was endorsing an Idi Amin style ethnic purge. 
Guy
1 Like
I am not insinuating he was. I am saying that brain drains can then occur, with the most extreme being the Ugandan example.
The Uganda example is not “brain brain”; it’s an example of state-directed ethnic purging, a position I am pretty certain no one on this board is advocating.
Guy
2 Likes
Others disagree:
Worst brain drain happening internally - New Vision Official
Expulsion of Asians from Uganda - Wikipedia
David Shinn - African Migration and the Brain Drain (google.com)
This brain drain started in the 1970s during the Idi Amin regime when highly qualified professionals (mostly doctors) left the country.
Records show that the number of doctors in Uganda dropped from 978 to 574 between 1968 and 1974, while that of pharmacists fell from 116 to 15.
I am not disputing statistics like that. I am disputing the relevance of the Uganda example you raised for the issue(s) in this thread.
Guy
It’s the worst case example and is cited in academic journals as per the third link. Talks about Canadian and US contexts in the intro where the term was coined, and then brings up Amin in the African context. Did you read it?
I do not believe this is a policy in Taiwan. That’s why they have contract labor that has no pathway to PR or citizenship although they said care givers could apply in reality their employers wont pay them the salary requirement.
1 Like
And to give Taiwan credit, I can’t imagine them removing the dual national possibility for their citizens. It’s a good thing for Taiwan and a good thing for nations to offer if they truly value diversity.
It is why I don’t think Canada would ever restrict to one nationality. It would really go against diversity.
I have no degrees and not enough money. I do somehow to have been given a functioning brain. I have run a business in China and my own here. Worked for a government in an overseas posting. Would not be anywhere near your global experience. I also have more than one nationality but that has not helped me as a resident of Taiwan. I also have no customers in Taiwan. I came from a country that did not allow dual nationality for its citizens but did allow it for immigrants. So unfair lol It does now.
Does any of my experience make me stand out as an Australian? Not really. Having a Taibaozheng with working rights in China was pretty useful though lol.
Did Australia suffer much of a brain drain from me leaving? I would guess not one iota. I did send lot’s of students and immigrants to Australia when I was buying and selling people. So maybe the incoming money was the benefit as well as many of my student clients I processed for skilled migration after they returned to Taiwan. A money and brain drain for Taiwan yes.
We get what you mean but is that not relevant to Taiwan. Is there going to be a purge and deportation of immigrants and citizens here? Idi Amin was a blight on humanity. A human stain.
Yeah, I was responding to UnderArmor’s post that we need less people with dual passports and competing loyalties in the Canadian context. And mentioned this type of thinking has been behind brain drains in the past and gave brain drain examples in academic circles that highlighted Uganda and other brain drain examples. To place limitations reeks of nativism.
I think Taiwan’s policy is very flexible on that front and don’t have a problem with it. Ditto for the existing policy in Canada. But I wince every time I hear Conservative politicians in Canada (who I normally would support) mention they are considering restricting or would if they returned to power. It would cause me to change my vote…Liberal or more likely NDP 
I don’t really have a problem with Taiwan’s policy either. It would be nice if it changed but that is not my fight. I guess as some people say I got what I wanted and don’t care if others make the choice not to naturalize over the renunciation requirement.
I’ve always said renunciation is good for the soul.
Renunciation exacts a heavy toll if you cannot resume.
You others are not the only one cursed with choices.
I renounced my birth citizenship when there was no resumption possible.
The toughest choices require the strongest wills. The weak willed simply give up.
I like Mattaiou’s approach. If he succeeds a lot of people will owe him a lot. But I do wonder if they really want to be citizens of a country they claim will still even as citizens treat them like foreigners and not give them loans, of that as some have said citizenship here is worthless then bleat on how much they want it but only on “their terms” not on the terms Taiwan offers. Or have other people write they outside their own village people will not accept them as Taiwanese. Only foreigners have said this to me.
Funny thing today, I complained to FSC about Taiwan Co Op Bank. A lady calls me, she comments that my accent sounds like I am from Alishan. She is in Chiayi. I’m like yeah I’m a mountain man 山地人, she cracks up laughing. 山地人 is not very PC anymore.
Going to have a meeting with her tomorrow morning for my business account.
1 Like
As a key example of racist spatializing ROC talk—given the boot by Indigenous activists in the 1980s, I think—no it’s not. 
Guy
1 Like
Is this your quote because I feel like I’ve read this before?
Yeah it’s mine. Perhaps on some FB Groups I post under my tribal name Avai Vayayana
I posted in an immigration group a few months ago and asked why nobody got off their arse to get the law challenged.
1 Like
Yup. The lady in the bank was quite hesitant to ask but she could see my company registered address is in Alishan. Caught her by surprise when I said it cause I was sure that’s what she was actually thinking but could not say. Wait till she meets me tomorrow to find out I’m a white guy hahahaha
One time chatting with my wife’s Mom in front of my house. I go indoors some tourist from Taipei asks her is that your son? Yes she replies. Taipei man, Oh he looks like a foreigner. My MIL replies yes a throwback to Dutch ancestry when the Dutch lived in Taiwan and and took aboriginal wives.
3 Likes
I think you missed my point
If I am correct, you did this years ago. Giving up ones place of birth passport (in the case of “foreigners” born and raised in Taiwan it is far more sad.) for Taiwanese citizenship was a simpler decision. Still not easy and many considerations. But, I think it is pointless for anyone to think this is as simple as a yes or no. In todays world, if a young person (which is what Taiwan wants/needs) makes this decision, it is far more complicated and unclear… it has become more complicated in recent years with the China issue, CCP and Xi. I think this is universally understood, regardless of differences if opinions on how to move forward.
To put it simply, I would drop my Canadian citizenship in a heartbeat if the chinese threat of war and oppression wasnt so real. I would even do it with the Chinese threat of murder if at least the global community supported Taiwan in any meaningful and clear way. But they dont. It is because the world governments are far more comfortable enabling tyrants while playing cloak and dagger than actually supporting a positive evolution of humans that I cant. Not for me, but for my family. If i drop mine, my entire family has zero exit strategy. Everyo.e essentially knows this, especially our government in Taiwan. They are not ignorant but also arent helping our case.
On reciprocal issues. The issue is less so: Do other countries have reciprocal citizenship laws. It is moreso that Taiwan needs friends, allies and contracts (everyone also knows this as fact, and the government does a lot of pandering and projects to do this. Often times in competition with China, not so unlike divorced parents spoiling children for false love on their birthdays). They do a lot of things with reciprocation in mind. That was my point earlier. The government does the bare minimum to look like they are just being fair with other countries, but wont where it counts. I get it, short term gain. Sure. We need long term strategy. Ironically, letting long standing residents, even those born and raised here, that work tooth and nail here is not an option to gain citizenship without renouncing their old. I guess the perfect Taiwanese way to say they are in the green is that very recently they have made it so that one doesnt need to risk being stateless for extended timeframes and even risk denial and being permanently stateless, which has happened to a couple friends of mine. we dont forget this. it has ruined lives, albiet relatively few. so it doesnt get attention. So yes, baby steps have been made. too little, too late, frankly. but Taiwan, as the country it is today, is new and I can have some sympathy for growing pains.
If Taiwan wants to move forward and gain allies, they might need to play long game and accept foreign imports are net positive rather than net negative as is the status quo even in 2023 culture and practice. they can filter them, as they already do for APRC, but allow a path without risk and without eventual spite.
Of course, that’s just my opinion. I dont see the old style working that well and it is better to push and strive for better rather than just throw our hands up and.say it is better than before so fuck it. Strive for excellence. Once it’s better, keep pushing for improvement. Once we live in “hheaven”, we should still be pushing to make it better. that battle hopefully never ends To mo push for better is akin to giving up and not caring. I wont have it. and i hope society at large wont either Ever.
1 Like
Agree with what you wrote.
It took me over a year of thought and agonizing to decide to renounce. Definitely not a simple yes or no. War with China seemed pretty real in 1996 1997 and the handover of HK.
If there was a war you too could go back to Canada as a refugee. Let’s go together.
My wife doesn’t have PR or citizenship of another country. lot’s of dual citizens and foreigners with local partners are in this situation. Families of white dudes will be thrown on planes or boats. Closest Japanese island is just to the east of Taiwan. Can get there in a speed boat.
No. Citizenship is and always will be an individuals country’s sovereign right to decide. Dual or multiple citizenships ( 3 or more as well ) is not a right. It is a privilege. Only EU countries have to grant citizenship to other EU member states. Read what Mataiou wrote about this question.
MataiouRegular
Citizenship is the most exquisite expression of sovereign prerogative, it is an act of benevolence of the sovereign to confer the citizenship upon an alien and it id completely within the government’s (i.e. sovereign) discretion.
The right to nationality is only to prevent statelessness, but if u already hold any citizenship, then there is no right for you to acquire one, it is a concession.
Out of benevolence, the sovereign (i.e. the government) can set up rules and procedures to let alien to “naturalise”, but there is nothing which can override the discretion of the government.
U can satisfy all the requirements, but the government can refuse your application at any time.
There has never been a reciprocity for citizenship, you have the right to change your nationality but no right to be assured to have more nationalities than your natural/original one.
1 Like