Can't read Chinese

[quote=“Hellstorm”][quote=“hidemi”]
–湯…–soup
–麵…–noodles


蛋花湯 Egg & vegetable soup
蛤蜊湯 Clams soup

麻醬麵 Sesame paste noodles
刀削麵 Sliced noodles[/quote]

I think that vocabulary like this is the most unimportant vocabulary available in a language. I really regret having learned all that stuff, because I will never need it again, when I am not in Taiwan. I should have used the time for learning the real language :smiley:[/quote]

:eh: I think vocab like this is the most important of all. Anything you need to get around in a country, find a bathroom, take a taxi, mail a letter, buy things and find food (like these ubiquitous items) is vital. What, pray tell, is the ‘real language’ in your opinion?

The crux of the matter to me is which are “keeper items” and which are “looker items”.

A “keeper item” is something you are willing to spend $1 of your $100 language items budget on to “buy”. It is a phrase or word that will serve you in a variety of contexts, both in Taiwan and abroad, reading and speaking. These tend to be the highest-frequency items in the language, or they might be words or phrases that specifically relate to the individual’s life. For me, “I’m a translator” is a keeper, but obviously it would not be for someone who is a beekeeper learning Chinese.

A “looker” is an item you can recognize when you have a helpful thing with you, such as a word list, a cheat sheet, a pocket dictionary, an iPhone, etc. etc. Unless you are going to go on in Chinese, or live in Taiwan for a long time, I can’t see any reason to learn these at first – and you will automatically master them if you ARE in Taiwan for a long time (and pay attention while using your word list, cheat sheet or iPhone each time).

We need to get more people fluent in Mandarin – at least to the point where they can speak freely and read adequately given a relatively small pool of vocabulary. If the schools insist in continuing to stuff so much vocabulary into students without allowing them to acquire the language, we won’t be able to improve the current rates of students going on to the intermediate or higher levels of proficiency. Right now, (I’m guessing, but I don’t think it’s far off) I’d be surprised if more than 4 or 5 of 100 beginning students of Mandarin ever got past the stumbling-fumbling stage in reality to where they can smoothly and automatically use the language in basic situations.

[quote=“Dragonbones”]
:eh: I think vocab like this is the most important of all. Anything you need to get around in a country, find a bathroom, take a taxi, mail a letter, buy things and find food (like these ubiquitous items) is vital. What, pray tell, is the ‘real language’ in your opinion?[/quote]

Ok, you are maybe seeing it from the perspective of living in Taiwan. But if you don’t live in Taiwan, you will not need vocabulary like 蛤蜊湯.
I am not saying that it is not important to know how to buy things, take a taxi etc. But I think that especially the food vocabulary is just useless.

Just think about it: If you have learned Chinese, but are not living in Taiwan or China, most of the time you come in contact with Chinese is with books, movies, websites etc. Where would you find vocabulary like 蛤蜊湯 there (of course, you could stumble across it, but usually if you don’t know what it is, you won’t be missing much).

If I recall how my English developed: Of course, at first I also learned some stuff like “apple” etc (which is usually ridicously easy for a German, because it is so similar to “Apfel”. Try to get píng​guǒ​ into the brain of a German). But the first time I had to find out what “garlic” is was in Taiwan (I’ve already forgotten it again, because I don’t need it if I am not in UK or US. Ok, it is “Knoblauch” in German, so no resemblence at all. No wonder that I find it hard to remember). Most of the time I learned English (in school and in university) I learned how to read texts, not how to order menus. And I think that this is the right approach. (ok, you could argue that English is a lingua franca, and Chinese is not.)

And if you don’t know how to say “芝麻包” in Taiwan, you can always say 這個 and point to it. Maybe the shop keeper then thinks that there is a stupid foreigner in front of him, who cannot even speak the most basic Chinese, but if you can talk about Taiwanese politics instead, then I think this is the right order to learn the vocabulary.
I always find it ridicoulus why the Taiwanese don’t realize that not being able to pronounce their food menus does not directly mean that the stupid foreigner cannot speak any Chinese at all.

In fact, I was recently at dinner with a family I’ve known for years in Taiwan (the wife is British, the husband Taiwanese). We had him order for us, obviously. His method? Pure “YI Ge Zhei Ge…YI Ge Nei Ge…raNHou…YI Ge Nei Ge.” I mentioned this to him in relation to discussions of late about what to teach and when, and he said that he thinks most people order like that. Now, he was pointing to the characters in the menu, and a less-initiated foreigner might be pointing to an actual food item on a nearby table, but either way, spending several weeks of a first-year course on teaching things like “wo xiang dian YI wan niURou Mian” seems like overkill.

At least he can read the menu, I think it is a plus. With Asian menus, it is hard sometimes to even know what it is with such colorful names. :slight_smile:

Hear hear, I cant visit any places with menus only in Chinese without an interpreter.

Sure ya can. Tell 'em you can’t read, and ask what they have.

My girlfriend is Taiwanese and half the time when I ask her what an item is on a menu she has no idea either. Not that she can’t translate it into english, she literally doesn’t know what it is. I can only assume it’s because the name is some weird obscure chinese equivalent of “moons over my hammy” .

[quote=“mooku”]

My girlfriend is Taiwanese and half the time when I ask her what an item is on a menu she has no idea either. Not that she can’t translate it into english, she literally doesn’t know what it is. I can only assume it’s because the name is some weird obscure chinese equivalent of “moons over my hammy” .[/quote]

The difficulty of this is being overstated by several posters above I think. First, there are a lot of items that are common to many menus and can be easily understood. Depending on the restaurant, a few, some or many will be different and to varying degrees indecipherable, and just as elsewhere, you’ll have to ask. But if you know Chinese food and can basically read the menu, you’ll know if they have what you want or not and if there’s anything you need to ask. This may not be important to everyone (I consider it to be an absolutely vital ability :slight_smile: ) but it’s not really that complicated in the end.

[quote=“Hellstorm”]Ok, you are maybe seeing it from the perspective of living in Taiwan. But if you don’t live in Taiwan, you will not need vocabulary like 蛤蜊湯.
I am not saying that it is not important to know how to buy things, take a taxi etc. But I think that especially the food vocabulary is just useless. [/quote]

I doubt you could make a deliberate effort to avoid food vocabulary in favor of general vocabulary. It’s all part of the same package. If your Chinese is of that level and you like clams, you’ll learn how to say “clam” naturally sooner or later. Again, if your Chinese is that good the first time you see specialized characters like that and ask what they are you won’t likely forget it, without any need to study them. That goes for most food stuff actually, if you go to restaurants/food stands you’ll pick up a lot effortlessly. I agree that that if you don’t like clams there’s probably not much point to learning it :slight_smile: