Castro is still alive (hee hee)

Politics International Politics
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Here’s a synopsis of the report. People can judge for themselves. He who calls his brother a fool shall see the fires of hell (Mathew 5:22).

[quote]1998
Unesco report ranks Cuban students first in international math and reading tests
This year, a report published by UNESCO released the data from a study on educational achievement in Latin America conducted the previous year. The study was coordinated by the Unesco’s Regional Office for Education in Latin America and the Caribbean (UNESCO-OREALC). It consisted of a comparative evaluation of achievement in mathematics and language in 13 Latin American countries: Argentina, Bolivia, Brasil, Bolivia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Chile, Dominican Republic, Honduras, Mexico, Paraguay, Peru, and Venezuela.

This comparative study on Latin American educational achievement was particularly important because it was the first one in which the indicators and procedures were agreed upon by the representatives of all the participant countries. The tests were conducted with students in grade 3 and grade 4. Overall, Cuban students showed the highest level of achievement, well above the students from other Latin American countries.

The Cuban performance in the Unesco study cannot be underestimated. Cuban students scored 350 points (around 90 per cent correct answers), 100 points above of the regional average. Argentina, Chile and Brazil followed with scores close to 250 points. The lowest results were in the Dominican Republic and Venezuela (UNESCO-OREALC, 1998, 2000, World Bank 1999). The report mentions that the "test achievement of the lower half of students in Cuba is significantly better than the test achievement of the upper half of students in the countries that fall immediately behind Cuba. (p. 21). It also notes that, with the exception of Cuba, there were no significant differences in the results of the participating countries:

"The first finding reveals that the results show differences among countries, both in levels and distribution of test achievement. The Cuban scores stand out significantly among countries in the region…(p. 12)

For some observers, the spectacular achievement of the Cuban educational system in this study was a surprise. At the time of the 1959 Revolution, Cuba had one of the lowest levels of literacy and basic education in the region, and since then its economic development has been seriously curtailed by an aggressive trade blockade imposed by the United States of America. Cuba is one of the poorest countries in Latin America, and certainly lacks the resources of countries like Mexico, Argentina, Venezuela or Brazil. How could a poor and isolated small nation situated in the middle of the Caribbean could have a higher educational achievement than those giants?

For more attentive observers of Latin American educational realities, this was not entirely surprising, because international commentators have long known that Cuba pays a special attention to education at all levels. As Juan Casassus, a member of the team of the Latin American Laboratory for Evaluation and Quality of Education at UNESCO Santiago which conducted the study noted, Cuba’s performance is no accident:

“Education has been a top priority in Cuba for forty years. It’s a true learning society: all Cuban parents have at least completed secondary education; they work hand-in-hand with the school and formal pre-schools are excellent.”

Attentive observers also know that there is a strong relation between the social welfare and health of the population, on the one hand, and educational achievement, on the other. In this respect, Cuba stands out among most Latin American countries for its achievements in social welfare and health. For instance, whereas in Latin America and the Caribbean as a whole the infant mortality rate is 30 per 1,000 live births, the figure for Cuba is close to 6 per 1,000 live births. Likewise, while the mortality rate for children under five in the region is 38 per 1,000, in Cuba it is from 13 to eight per 1,000. Moreover, life expectancy is the highest in the region.

In spite of enduring a long economic crisis, Cuba has been able to keep education as a priority, with public spending on education amounting to 6.7% of GNP, twice the proportion of many Latin American countries. Likewise, net primary enrollments are the highest in the region, and the teacher-student ratio (12 students per teacher) is half of the Latin American average. It could be claimed, however, that these statistics do not necessarily reflect the real measure of success of an educational system, which is the quality of learning. In this regard, the Cuban case suggests a strong correlation between investment in education and student achievement. For instance, the youth illiteracy rate in Cuba is close to zero, a figure unmatched by any other Latin American country, where the average is 7%. According to the latest figures that appear in the World Development Indicators published by the World Bank in April 2001, Cuba continues to surpass virtually all other Latin American countries in health and education statistics. Again, it is important to remind ourselves that these accomplishments in social welfare were attained in the context of a relatively poor economy and a long-term, continuous blockade on trade, which makes the achievements more impressive.

In her short and insightful article reflecting on Cuba’s performance in the Unesco study, Barbara Hunt (2003: 250) conclude with this summary statement: "Although there are many problems, the Cubans are indeed doing many things right in education. Not one, but a constellation of factors contributes to the quality of Cuban schools. These include nutrition, pre-school child care, educational programs for parents, excellent teacher training that continues during a teacher’s career, a strong role for the principal, solid systems for supervision and supportive evaluation of teachers, and a child-centered approach combined with high expectations for the performance of supervisors, principals, teachers and children.

Indeed, the Cuban educational success suggests that some of the key factors for educational achievement are a strong commitment for the educational sector on the part of the government that is expressed in continuous investments in the health and welfare of the population, the development and maintenance of a strong public education system, and the provision of equality of opportunity to a high quality education for all students. Another important factor, of course is the quality of teachers’ training and the support for teachers’ professional development. In Cuba, teachers at all levels are expected to complete 5 years of university, and there is an extensive system of additional courses and work towards graduate programs. Additionally, teachers are encouraged to engage in research projects that relate closely to their classroom problems and experiences, and they learn continuously from a supportive supervision system. In most schools the principal and teachers operate like a collective: the staff all live near the school, all know each other and work together, both on problems encountered in their teaching and on problems children are having. Because the teachers live in the communities around the schools, they know the parents of their students, and the parents know them. Moreover, Cuban schools are closely integrated with the community and its health services. Most day care centers have both a doctor and nurse on the staff.

All these factors explain that the Cuban educational success is not a miracle or an accident, but the result of many years of concerted efforts and commitments, not only in education, but also in a variety of equitable development related areas. In relation to other Latin American countries and to many other countries in the world, the Cuban educational achievements are indeed impressive. Considering the particular hardships that the Cuban society has withstand for decades, these achievements deserve the recognition and respect of the international educational communities.

Sources

Gasperini, Lavinia (1999). The Cuban Educational System: Lessons and Dilemmas. Washington, D.C.: The World Bank, LAC, Human Development Dept.

Hunt, Barbara (2003, November). A Look at Cuban Schools: What Is Cuba Doing Right? Phi Delta Kappan 85 (3), 246-250.

UNESCO (1998). Primer Estudio Internacional Comparativo sobre Lenguaje, Matemática y Factores Asociados en Tercero y Cuarto Grado. Santiago: Laboratorio Latinoamericano de Evaluación de la Calidad de la Educación.

World Bank (1999). Entering the 21st Century. World Development Report 1999/2000. Washington DC: World Bank.

Wolff, L. (1999). Primary Education in Cuba. Education Unit, Sustainable Development Department, IDB.

Prepared by DS, 2004

[/quote]

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I’m sorry, but did I miss where the statement “independently verified” came in? on that rather glowing tribute? And did you see the statistics that I posted regarding Cuba’s status BEFORE the Revolution? Once it compared with Europe favorably and now it compares with Latin America’s worst nations favorably? You see that this is not really a great honor don’t you?

In the meantime, I am going to have to assume that as the Sandinistas also did, the figures were supplied by the governments in question. Once that government was out of power, however, the figures on literacy and social welfare miraculously dropped… no doubt because the new government was capitalist and did not display the “same commitment to the people and their welfare…”

By the way, I own some lovely beachfront property in Florida and was wondering if you would like to make a shrewd investment. I can supply you with all the figures but unfortunately, they have not been analyzed by any independent source. Trust me will you? Would I lie to you?

Anyway, I think it is cute how people like you so desperately defend Castro and his pitiful human rights record because you think that socially the people or rather the “people” are better off, but then how would you actually know that? haha Anyway, keep defending Castro. Keep clutching at straws. At least, he mouths off to Bush and Amerikkka and that makes all the suffering and lack of freedom oh so worth it for you right?

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:ponder: Interesting. As Fred noted, the main focus of the synopsis is not methodology, but it did contain this passage that sheds some light on how the results were generated:

That fits fairly well with the quote I provided from the UNESCO website. If UNESCO was doing the tests themselves, it would not be so significant that all the participant countries had agreed upon the indicators and procedures. The UNESCO website also confirms that along with the questionnaire, the government of each country is given guidance on what procedures that partipant government should use to collect and calculate the results – so that the results across countries can be meaninfully compared.

Making sure every participant is playing by the same rules is certainly a sensible move. I don’t think anyone is calling UNESCO a “fool” here, Fox. They appear to have worked hard to create a good questionnaire, and they have made sure that each country that participates has agreed to a consistent set of definitions and procedures for producing the data. Unforunately, they simply don’t have the resources to do the tests themselves in every country in the world.

Thus, UNESCO is forced to farm it out, and to rely to some extent on the honesty and integrity of the participant governments to provide unbiased data about that country’s school system as they told UNESCO they would. Not ideal, but better than nothing. I guess one’s confidence in any given set of results would depend on the level of trust one had in the relevant participant country’s government… :idunno:

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I didn’t see your interesting statistic there Fred. However, it is worth addressing. Prior to the Cuban revolution because of the situation in the countryside there was a huge amount of urban drift. In 1953 the figure was more than 20,000. That figure kept on rising and it was a driving force in Castro decentralizing development. It is not an uncommon problem. It just meant that there were huge amounts of unemployed rural people living in the city. The type of environment ripe for revolution which is of course what occurred.

I might add I’m not sure of the verasity of your statisics. In 1956 the rural population of Cuba was 56% in a trend that was seeing masses of people migrate to urban areas. It is a small point but it quite a significant difference.

You can crap on about independent verification until you go there and conduct the tests yourself. Who knows what level of propriety will satisfy you?

Here are the Census reports. They make your income stats look a little insulting even to your own intelligence.

[quote]The 1946 Cuban agricultural census showed great disparities in family income distribution by farm size. There were 62,500 families with land holdings from 1 to 10 hectares and a monthly income of 37.54 pesos. The 147,189 families with holdings from 10 to 100 hectares averaged 69.86 pesos per month in income. The group with farm holdings above 1,000 hectares contained only 894 families with an average monthly income of 3,313.69 pesos (Valdés Paz, p. 32). It is obvious that the status of agricultural workers was not any better. As a matter of fact, according to the ACU study, the average monthly income of agricultural workers in 1956-1957 was 45.72 pesos (Gastón et al., 1957, p. 60).
T
he 1946 Census also quantified the average monthly salary of agricultural wage earners by type of land tenure. The highest salary (59.53 pesos) was earned by sub-renters and the lowest salary (33.90 pesos) was earned by sharecroppers (Valdés García, 1990, p. 28). The ACU study confirmed the census findings by estimating the annual income of a six-person peasant family at $548.75, or $46.72 per month. That level of income, however, was not achieved by 50% of the families of agricultural workers (p. 60). The same study calculated that the agricultural workers’ population represented 34% of Cuba’s total population, but received only 10% of the national income regardless of the method of payment (Gastón et al., 1957, p. 7).

[/quote]

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All my Tom Foolery relates to this comment by Fred. It is total nonsence. Clearly Cuba was a basket case before the revolution in terms of any quality of life index for the majority of the population and possibly still is, but it has made substantial gains in many areas.

In these kinds of debates, I always think of what Zhu Rong Ji (spelling) had to say about the communist revolution when pushed on human rights, “What do you think the great march was all about? I’ve been fighting for human rights for 50 years.”

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Scroll back a page…

Gosh, in 1953, it was 20,000? Does that seem like a lot of people to you? Out of a population of around 6 million at the time?

The quote I gave was I believe for 1953 and it stated that 46 percent of the population was engaged in farming/agriculture. BUT what were the comparable statistics for other nations in the region? Similar?

[quote]
You can crap on about independent verification until you go there and conduct the tests yourself. Who knows what level of propriety will satisfy you? [/quote]

Thank you for finally acknowledging that the figures supplied are not independently verified and given Cuba’s scores of 7 and 7 for political and civic rights, gee, what conclusions can we draw as to the “veracity” not verasity of those statistics?

How so? Scroll back. I believe that agricultural workers as cited by my link were the highest paid in Latin America. Now, that might not be good, but it is important in a relative sense. Surely you see that?

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Oh?

Really?

Again, given that Cuba led the field in Latin America for a variety of areas, scroll back one page for the figures, how does that make it a basket case for most people? And would you say that those agricultural workers were suffering in comparison with their counterparts in other nations? But then how do you account for the fact that the report cited Cuba’s agricultural workers as some of the highest if not highest paid in the region? Finally, you have no independent sources for the information that you have based your opinion that Cuba has made substantial gains on, do you? And given that the literacy, medical, standard of living figures were remarkably high before the revolution, what kind of “progress” are you referring to now that Cuba has a standard of living that is one of the lowest in the Western Hemisphere?

So now human rights are your main concern? Well then answer us how you would refute Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International on political and civic freedoms in Cuba which earn the lowest scores possible in both categories? Human rights by ass. You and your ilk are so painfully stupid that you really do believe that Bush is worse than Castro and that somehow the Communist revolution has brought greater equality? Unfortunately, for you, the same report cites just how concentrated wealth has become since your precious communist revolution. And who has that money? the communist party and conditions there are now far more oligarchic than before the revolution so just er where is this progress, this greater equality that you seem to deem so all-important? You are a fool and a big one.

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Here’s some more… Here Foxie foxie. I have got some more dog biscuits for you. hahaha

[quote]Let’s take the first point: yes, Cubans do live healthier lives than many of our junk-food generation. Outside of the elite, you rarely see a fat Cuban. (Until his illness, Fidel’s battle-fatigues strained over his belly.) But the country has strict food rationing — and the rations are meagre, liable to be cut any time the Maximum Leader sees fit. Cubans therefore spend a lot of their energy trying to find ways to get more food on the black market, including bribing supervisors at government warehouses. When some parents were once caught giving their children a banana to take to school to supplement their rice-and-beans lunch, they were told that this was forbidden as a ‘counter-revolutionary’ act. As one Cuban mother commented bitterly: “Let the ministers turn up to tell me why giving my child a banana is an act of counter-revolution — and why, in our ‘equal society’, the children of other ministers are taken off every day in a smart air-conditioned car to have lunch at home!” And why, incidentally, is there still food rationing after 47 years of Communist rule? Not because Cuba is some sub-Saharan drought-stricken country. Not because of the U.S. trade embargo.

In fact, Cuba, being blessed with fertile soil, sun and rain, and surrounded by sea, could easily feed its 11 million people. But such is the incompetence of the regime that you can drive a few miles out of Havana and see tomatoes rotting in the fields because no one bothers, except sporadically, to transport them into the city. Of course, when a Cuban falls ill, Newsnight’s starry-eyed film told viewers, he or she will be looked after for free by Cuba’s ‘miraculous’ health care system. One much cited statistic is the ratio of doctors per head of population. Which looks good on paper. Yet why is it that health clinics all over the country are being closed because of a shortage of doctors? The reason is simple: Cuba is trading doctors for oil from its oil-rich neighbour Venezuela. Cuban doctors are initially paid a mere £16 a month. The state decides whether you become a doctor or not and you have no choice in the matter. If the doctors are traded overseas by the regime, they’ll get a bonus. Despite this, an alarming number of doctors never come back. The ‘traded’ doctors are officially volunteers, but should a doctor refuse to be sent abroad without his or her family, such ‘bourgeois’ ideological backsliding will be duly noted on their work documents.

Cubans have a highly-developed sense of black humour: one of the jokes doing the rounds these days is: “Soon we’ll have medicine without medics: we’ll have traded them all for petrol!” Cuban doctors can achieve great feats in areas like heart and eye surgery (especially if there’s an admiring foreign TV crew around), but despite the country having its own pharmaceutical industry, it can be extraordinarily difficult for poor Cubans to buy basics like aspirin. They are too expensive for us," said one father. “If you know a doctor in a hospital, he might sell you some on the side, but otherwise…” Perhaps these corrupt doctors are behind the creation and sale of strange ‘downer’ pills called ‘Parkinsonias’ (presumably, originally designed for Parkinson’s sufferers) which — along with marijuana spliffs — I was furtively offered by young touts on Havana’s crumbling Malecon sea front.

In Cuba, if you have money — thanks to ‘counter-revolutionary’ ducking and diving — or, more importantly, if you have ‘connections’, then a certain number of apparently ‘unobtainable’ items can, after all, suddenly become ‘available’ One of the ways that Cubans keep healthy is that they do, indeed, take more exercise than us. But walking for miles in the blazing heat is not necessarily the preferred choice of locomotion for the average Cuban. They walk simply because, despite the doctors-for-oil deals, there still is not enough petrol for domestic cars. (Plenty, of course, for tourist taxis — which bring in much needed foreign currency — and the elite’s Mercedes motorcades.) The Maximum Leader suspected — rightly — that too much petrol was being stolen and sold on the black market. So he recently unleashed squads of uniformed young ‘social workers’ to man the pumps and go through the books of the state-run petrol stations: it was discovered that more than half of the petrol previously sold was not accounted for.

For decades, sugar was Cuba’s chief cash crop and the Maximum Leader urged people to grow more and more ‘socialist’ sugar each year. But then the sugar market collapsed — whereupon he berated his officials for incompetence in producing too much. He seemed oblivious to the fact that his near-neighbour Brazil learnt how to use surplus sugar cane to produce ethanol, which is now used to power around 20 per cent of its transport. Indeed, Brazil has cut down on oil imports and is even selling its ethanol to countries such as Japan and Sweden. Even if Castro had noticed this, he would have ignored its example — because he, being all-powerful, all-wise, never believes that he can learn any lessons from anyone else. The difference between Cuba’s Communist dictatorships and others I’ve worked in is, frankly, the weather and the people themselves. As one diplomat in Havana put it to me: “It’s much easier to endure oppression and poverty if the weather is nice and you can go to the beach and get drunk.” Castro groupies in the West point out that although Cuba is poor, its society is equal. Mind you, it used not to be poor: before the revolution, it had the highest per capita income in the Caribbean. Now, only the Dominican Republic and Haiti are poorer.

But even this much-vaunted equality is illusory. For example, the majority of Cubans are black, but the elite are brown, of Spanish ancestry. One black Cuban artist I met in Havana told me: “Because of my colour, I have very little chance of official support. It’s only in athletics that blacks are promoted, because they win international honours. But black artists — forget it.” Needless to say, he, too, has defected. Now let’s take the famed educational system. Yes, education is free. And yes, Cuba now has a literacy level of almost 100 per cent. But even according to Cuba’s own figures, its literacy level before the 1959 revolution was already 74 per cent. Only one poor province, Oriente, had a low literacy level.

Cuba’s greatest modern novelist, the late Guillermo Cabrera Infante (previously an ally of Fidel’s), was born in Oriente and once told me: “Despite Castro glorying in his so-called educational achievements, the fact is that there was never any great mountain to climb in literacy levels and he had decades in which to do it.” Of course, as in all dictatorships I’ve worked in, education is used as an ideological tool. In Havana, I managed to interview the beautiful, deeply sad Alina Revuelta, Fidel’s illegitimate daughter (he is alleged to have had at least nine children by assorted mistresses). She was kept under constant secret police surveillance but eventually escaped in disguise to Madrid, and thence to Florida, where she became a vocal opponent of her father’s regime. “Everything in education here is ideological!” sighed Alina. "For example, teaching the alphabet: ‘F’ is for Fidel, ‘R’ is for Raul the Beacon. “Anyway, there’s not much to read here because so many books are banned.” [/quote]

dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a … ge_id=1787

Viva Castro because he is anti-American!!! Viva his nasty comments to George Bush… Pity about the 11 million Cubans though and too bad that the reality of the educational and social achievements ain’t so good when you take a closer look but anyway, Castro and Che look good on T-shirts and everyone I know is wearing them so onward fashionistas and if that means adopting Che and Castro so be it!

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And then, what’s this? How inconvenient…

[quote]“[Castro] has some real accomplishments to point to,” claims the London Times. “Under his rule, the impoverished Caribbean island has created health and education systems that would be the envy of far wealthier nations … and there is near full literacy on the island.” From London to Tokyo, from Paris to Bangkok, from New York to Madrid — this claim echoes through every media mention of Castro.

For the record: In 1958, that “impoverished Caribbean island" had a higher standard of living than Ireland and Austria, almost double Spain and Japan’s per capita income, more doctors and dentists per capita than Britain, and lower infant mortality than France and Germany — the 13th-lowest in the world, in fact. Today, Cuba’s infant-mortality rate — despite the hemisphere’s highest abortion rate, which skews this figure downward — is 24th from the top.

So, relative to the rest of the world, Cuba’s health care has worsened under Castro, and a nation with a formerly massive influx of European immigrants needs machine guns, water cannons and tiger sharks to keep its people from fleeing, while half-starved Haitians a short 60 miles away turn up their noses at any thought of emigrating to Cuba.

In 1958, 80 percent of Cubans were literate, and Cuba spent the most per capita on public education of any nation in Latin America.

The Cuba Archive project, headed by scholars Maria Werlau and Armando Lago, put the death toll from Castro’s regime, including deaths at sea and the desperate anti-Communist insurgency of the early ‘60s, at 102,000. This project has been lauded by everyone from the Miami Herald (again, no right-wing outpost) to the Wall Street Journal. [/quote]

brookesnews.com/062108fontova.html

So,er 102,000 in Cuba dead and nothing, no marches? no Cindy Sheehans? But we have 55,000 dead in Iraq and we have peace protests and concerned citizens everywhere? Despite the fact that Iraqis have had several elections to determine their fate while not one has been held freely in Cuba since the “revolution?” Why don’t you people wake up and smell the shit you swallow.

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Sounds like a regular paradise Fred: marijuana spliffs, beautiful deeply sad women, no overweight light weights, the Buena Vista social club, great cigars and the best Mojitos in the world. What are you getting so wound up about?

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Thank you for your admission that you have nothing further to add and can neither support your view that the UNESCO or WHO statistics are based on independent evidence or that you have any thing further to add in support of the “great social equality” and “miraculous medical and literary” figures in Cuba. What is it about you people and your cynical refusal to believe that anything a Western leader says is possibly true or does could possibly be from genuine concern or positive motivations but you swallow any and all lies from regimes with no independent press that grant their citizens absolutely no rights just because they “say so” with the added frisson from seeing them stand up to tough guys like Bush? How is that any different from stuffing your face at McDonald’s because the ad messages get through to you? You are a sheeple. Do you think for yourself, ever? at all?

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Equating victory with anothers lack of will to purse futility is one of your more peculiar traits Fred.

Who are these people you are talking about now?

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Let’s see, now it’s Cuba’s turn. Let’s go! Free the people of Cuba! Liberate them!

Should be a walkover for the Bush regime… I mean it’s just across the water… and the poor Cubans would welcome the liberation force with open arms… just like in…

Funny how some people always have their bollocks in a knot about places like Eyeraq, Korea, Eyeran, Vietnam … and now … Cuba! The true beacons of freedom and liberation you are.

I see a tail-between-the-legs withdrawal from Eyeraq. THAT would be a good time to pick on Cuba… maybe to restore a bit of credibility.

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There you have it ladies and gentlemen:

Cuba with its totally imperfect scores in human rights, civil and political rights is a victim of US aggression. The deaths in Iraq are being caused by US aggression NOT insurgents, gangsters and terrorists. There is no reason to be concerned about North Korea and Iran with their imperfect scores in all measures of human rights but there is with regard to the US despite its perfect scores.

As to that exercise in futility, let it go Fox, you are starting to embarrass yourself. Your lack of a credible response really is a response and one that we all understand. But back to supporting Castro because he has done so much for the people! At least, that’s what he tells you and you will have to take his word on this won’t you? haha

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Um, yes, um, what he said!

Thanks Hobbes. I think you went a bit beyond my intention, but most of it was spot on!

Jeez, I log on 24 hours later and see 4 pages of posts. Looks like I touched a sore spot.

Look for more in my continuing series…

Bin Laden is still alive (hee hee)
Viva Che! (hee hee)
The CIA has failed to assassinate Chavez yet (hee hee)
Allah Akbar (hee hee)
…

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Sore? No. You touched a contempt spot…

I just find it funny when “activists” and “radicals” such as yourself support individuals such as Castro and Chavez without really understanding anything about them. It is almost as banal as buying Starbuck’s coffee because you are buying into the media message. It is a gathering place for Friends. It is all part of the be a Rebel Without a Cause in Levi’s jeans, or smoke Gauloise to exhibit that Left Bank Worldweary Philosophical Chic. Oh yes, and that is where Noam Chomsky comes in. Carry around 911. Be an Intellectual. See the way things Really Are.

How then do you explain your support for socialist causes when, er, economic wealth is more concentrated in Castro’s Cuba than ever before? Er. Um. This is a tough one. Um. Cuz. Ah… Communism works but it has never been put into practice properly. Er. Um. Cuz those who control all that concentrated wealth, er, um, have the “best interests of the People” at heart. Er, um… so how is that different from feudalism which is even more atavistic than bourgeois capitalism? er, um, gee, er I’ll take a double latte, low-caffeine with chocolate sprinkles please and can I have an ashtray for my Galoise cigarettes, unfiltered of course, and can you wipe that seat off with that napkin made of recycled material so that I don’t stain my Levi’s and how about these Birkenstocks? eh? Have you seen 911 yet? I just love Chomsky. What? You have a friend who eats at McDonald’s? Where does he live (said with dripping contempt) the suburbs? Hello. That’s where evil Walmart is!

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don’t forget the ‘berets’…

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[quote] just find it funny when “activists” and “radicals” such as yourself support individuals such as Castro and Chavez without really understanding anything about them. It is almost as banal as buying Starbuck’s coffee because you are buying into the media message. It is a gathering place for Friends. It is all part of the be a Rebel Without a Cause in Levi’s jeans, or smoke Gauloise to exhibit that Left Bank Worldweary Philosophical Chic. Oh yes, and that is where Noam Chomsky comes in. Carry around 911. Be an Intellectual. See the way things Really Are.
[/quote]

The thing is Fred you say this but the fact of the matter is you don’t have a clue what you are talking about. These people that you are talking about are some kind of abstaction for you to rally against.

For example what do you know about the people on these boards who you are trying to marginalize by creating a stereotypical image for something that simply has no stereotype. Your capacity for this kind of thinking is the greatest floor in your debating style. It’s funny and I admit I like it, but it is lightweight and ultimately detracts from your debates. Keep it up.

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Yes Fox?

I do not recall saying “this” recently. I apologize for any overuse or inappropriate use of “this.”

Not abstraction but mindlessly easy targets. Hey, I am addicted to laughing at stupid people. I apologize. To quote from Dodge Ball: It’s like watching a bunch of retards trying to f*** a doorknob. Paints a picture, yeah?

Well, apparently, there IS a stereotype of you wouldn’t be upset about my “creating a stereotypical image” and for that matter how can there not be a stereotype if by your own words, I have already created just such an image?

I shall strive to reach for it more often.

Fine. Want to talk about independent verification of your stastics or rather those you have been spoonfed by Castro? Want to talk about increased concentration of economic resources in the hands of a few? Want to talk about declining standards of living? Want to talk about migration of 20,000 people (Oh my God) in 1953 from farms to cities but not about 500,000 who fled the country before the doors were shut?

Want to talk about the 7s that Cuba scores in human, civil and political rights and freedoms? Want to talk about the feudal existence of much of the country’s workers/rural labor force? Want to talk about the marginalization of those without access to foreign currency? Let’s. Back to those subjects whenver you think you can get it back up. I will wait patiently. In the meantime, look at the retards trying to F*** the doorknob and criticize me for laughing. Mea culpa!

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I just find it funny when “activists” and “radicals” such as yourself support individuals such as Castro and Chavez without really understanding anything about them. It is almost as banal as buying Starbuck’s coffee because you are buying into the media message. It is a gathering place for Friends. It is all part of the be a Rebel Without a Cause in Levi’s jeans, or smoke Gauloise to exhibit that Left Bank Worldweary Philosophical Chic. Oh yes, and that is where Noam Chomsky comes in. Carry around 911. Be an Intellectual. See the way things Really Are. [/quote]
Amazing. As the OP, my original topic was how the conservative mind needs to have enemies and to see things in black and white. And the conservatives accomodated us with a knee-jerk rant about Castro. You can’t make this stuff up. I couldn’t have made my point any more eloquently. Just sit back and let Fred & company fall on their own sword in public as they did above.

Unwittingly continuing to farce himself, Fred has now segued into the conservative latte-liberal bashing image they seem to subsist on. Gosh Fred, if only we could be tough realistic macho conservatives like you, couldya teach us?

It never occurs to these guys that the reason Cuba’s economy has had such a tough time is that the USA has been deliberately isolating it for decades. And then they turn around and claim, well certainly this proves that communism is a failure. Its completely beyond them intellectualy to consider more than one cause.

The sheer paucity of thinking ability among conservatives simply disgusts any thinking person. The Republicans only contribution to human discourse and progress apparently is to try to mock people who think. And to deny global warming and evolution. Shameful, and pathetic. But, I guess that’s what happens when you get your news from the Reverend Moon owned Washington Times. Fred, don’t you have a Moonie gathering to attend? Maybe he can hook you up at one of his mass marriages.

Let’s talk about Ted Kennedy now, is he great or what?