Later news articles confirm these bishops + cardinals have been excommunicated from the church.
It’s always amusing to me when representatives of the Catholic Church (like Joseph Zen) complain about democracy and religious rights. First of all, no Catholic priest has ever been popularly elected. Second of all, any Catholic who doesn’t follow its doctrine precisely is condemned to Hell.
The fact that we don’t believe being excommunicated really equals eternal damnation is irrelevant. Observant Catholics actually do believe they’re eternally damned if they don’t obey the Pope’s every verdict. That’s freedom for you.
Later news articles confirm these bishops + cardinals have been excommunicated from the church.
It’s always amusing to me when representatives of the Catholic Church (like Joseph Zen) complain about democracy and religious rights. First of all, no Catholic priest has ever been popularly elected. Second of all, any Catholic who doesn’t follow its doctrine precisely is condemned to Hell.
The fact that we don’t believe being excommunicated really equals eternal damnation is irrelevant. Observant Catholics actually do believe they’re eternally damned if they don’t obey the Pope’s every verdict. That’s freedom for you.[/quote]
Not true. I’m an observant Catholic who went to Catholic school for twelve years and attends Mass every Sunday here in Taiwan.
What the Catholic Church teaches is that only God knows and decides who’s worthy to enter heaven and the key is seeking forgiveness from Him and rejecting evil.
For example, the good thief who died with Jesus during the crucifixation most likely broke most of the (eternal) teachings of the Catholic Church during his life but a simple act of faith and repentance was enough to save him.
Some Catholic theologians posit that it’s actually a person himself or herself who in essence condemns themselves to hell by rejecting all redemption and deliberately embracing evil. Think of Zacarias Moussaoui’s performance in his just-concluded trial for example. During life, they hate God and everything He represents and that hatred and revulsion carries over into the afterlife at the moment of death, only magnified many fold. If you reject God, there’s only one alternative and that’s hell.
I view this incident from a purely political perspective, because however the Vatican views itself, I view it as a political institution. I don’t care about the religious (Catholic Church) side of it, because it gets to be impossible to deal with claims of otherworldly righteousness. This is how I view FLG as well. I think that is how the PRC deals with it, too. Of all states, why should the Vatican get any special treatment. The PRC doesn’t let other countries appoint Chinese religious leaders.
I stand corrected. I don’t pretend to know much about the Catholic Church beyond basic laymen, “common sense” knowledge.
But I was under the impression that Church-authorized confessional played a huge role in terms of redemption. That without confessing his/her sins at the time of death, even if it was God that technically made the final decision, the conclusion was already obvious. And therefore, since excommunication implies removing the right to confess sins… it was equivalent to condemnation to Hell.
But again, laymen knowledge. Someone can correct me if they’re wrong.
And finally, I think the Vatican has “the right” to excommunicate whoever they want. I also think the Catholic Church in China has the right to do whatever they want. The Anglicans went through this whole little charade a few hundred years ago, and they seem to have come out of it adequately well.
Two authoritarian governments. To me (an atheist), neither one is necessarily better than the other.
However, if I had to choose between living in a communist country or a Catholic one (or any religions, if it is not a secular country), I would pick the communists any day.
By the way, as much as I believe in freedom of religion, I greatly enjoy China’s atheism.
I find this subject matter fascinating.
In one corner, The Stalwart Bastion of Western Civ., while not the power it once was, Still A Force To Be Reckoned With.
In the other corner, our Fresh Faced-Contender, Who’s Young & Hung, And Here To Kick Ass.
Religion & Politics are so often interwoven. And for China, historically this issue is a vital one, especially with regard to Western Missionaries {sic} over the last 200 years or so.
And what power wielding nation-state would not feel free to “piss off the Vatican”, whenever it felt that it was in it’s own interest to do just that? Especially when said issue takes place miles away from Rome. Wasn’t it Uncle Joe who posited that The Pope aught to perform a certain male ritual, while at the same time contemplating Just How Many Divisions he had?
I’m amused that the Vatican would be irked that the Communist Party would interfere in its business by annointing bishops. Well I can understand but it amuses me nonetheless. The Vatican has been interfering in affairs of state for 2000 years and on numerous occassions, states have interfered with the Church either by confiscating land or annointing bishops or heck even their own counter-pope. Is Hu Jintao the modern incarnation of Henry VIII? Will the Catholic Church in China become the next Church of England? Are Chinese Catholics now all Episcopalians?
Seriously, I can reiterate enough how much it amuses me to see the papists throw a hissy fit when an organization even more obsessed with control than they are takes away some of their self-appointed privilges. :raspberry:
There are several checkpoints upon which the Catholic religion can be assured of its liberalization, one of which is the appointment of the Pope by the College of Cardinals. Nevertheless, the Catholic church in itself never should be compared to any autocratic regimes, because if you are Catholic, anytime anyday you can convert to atheism if you like.
The word catholic connotes oneness. There is a singular church derived from a great church, and the belief of that singular church has been sensitively guarded for millenias, because in its core is the message from heaven sent through the Holy Father. And the way the message from heaven cascades through the ranks of Catholics is so vital, that it is important that whoever leads any diocese should come from the highest Catholic authority.
In my opinion, the Vatican is dismayed not on the Communist’s effort on challenging it’s authority on Catholics in China, but on the Catholic faithful in China themselves. These people are led to believe the Communist-appointed bishops are genuine, which they are not. That is so great a sin as committing the atrocities of Auschwitz.
Well, that’s just great, isn’t it? Meanwhile we have Lizi1118 here trying to convince all that not agreeing with the FLG-approved genuine saying “FLG is good” is so great a sin as committing the atrocities of Auschwitz. So maybe these two groups can join forces against, uh, “evil.” Donot libel or slander, I say!
I find this whole thing amusing. IMO, Joe Zen shows himself to be a complete hypocrite when he complains about China or HK’s lack of democracy. The Roman Catholic Church is a political organization, and it certainly is not a democracy.
Religious organizations in China have had to pledge loyalty (or whatever else you want to call it) to the government for centuries. Why should the Roman Catholic Church be any different? If Joe Zen’s worldview wasn’t defined by double standards, then he’d be campaigning for religious freedom in general in China rather than just trying to advance the interests of the Roman church.
However, I also think the response to Joe Zen’s ranting highlights a way in which Chinese people’s thinking about politics is very immature. Here in HK, I hear plenty of people say that Zen should not talk about politics because he is a religious leader and has great influence over Roman Catholics. I’ve never heard these same people complain when the head monk out at the Baolian monastery has appealed for everyone to follow the government and maintain “peace and harmony.” Religions are interest groups just like any other and their members and leaders should enjoy the same right as any other interest group to speak up and try to advance their own interests through the political process. So what if Zen exercises influence over Catholics. As if Li Kaishing or any other tycoons who’ve commented on political issues don’t exercise influence over the thousands of people who work in their companies?
I’m mystified by this implication that the Catholic Church is remiss because it’s not a democratic institution. What religion, employer, university, charity or other organization in which membership or participation is voluntary is a democracy?
I’m mystified by this implication that the Catholic Church is remiss because it’s not a democratic institution. What religion, employer, university, charity or other organization in which membership or participation is voluntary is a democracy?[/quote]
Please tell me all about the religion, university, employer, charity or other organization that calls the top of its hierarchy a country and expects to conduct relations with national governments as an equal entity. Say what you like about countries like the US lecturing other countries about democracy, but at least one can make a decent case that the US is a democracy. The Vatican or those who officially speak on its behalf lecturing China about democracy isn’t much different from China doing the same to North Korea. The difference is that the former happens, whereas the latter does not. The Pope and any of his Cardinals or Bishops who would lecture another country about democracy are hypocrites.
I’m mystified by this implication that the Catholic Church is remiss because it’s not a democratic institution. What religion, employer, university, charity or other organization in which membership or participation is voluntary is a democracy?[/quote]
Please tell me all about the religion, university, employer, charity or other organization that calls the top of its hierarchy a country and expects to conduct relations with national governments as an equal entity. Say what you like about countries like the US lecturing other countries about democracy, but at least one can make a decent case that the US is a democracy. The Vatican or those who officially speak on its behalf lecturing China about democracy isn’t much different from China doing the same to North Korea. The difference is that the former happens, whereas the latter does not. The Pope and any of his Cardinals or Bishops who would lecture another country about democracy are hypocrites.[/quote]
I’m a Catholic and the Pope and bishops have zero political power over me, which is the way it should be. I think the Vatican has around a thousand or so citizens but they all hold political citizenship in some other country and only hold a diplomatic passport from the Vatican. Compare that to the billion or so Catholics like myself in the world who have no political connection whatsoever with the Vatican and I think that because the Vatican political entity is a theocracy and not a democracy therefore the Catholic Church is just another dictatorship is a bit of an overstatement.
[quote=“spook”]
I’m mystified by this implication that the Catholic Church is remiss because it’s not a democratic institution. What religion, employer, university, charity or other organization in which membership or participation is voluntary is a democracy?[/quote]The Communist Party of China? More democratic than the Catholic Church, and membership is most certainly voluntary.
I don’t understand the logic behind differentiating on the basis of “voluntary” enrollment, anyways. Residency in Hong Kong is voluntary as well, as most/all had the right to apply for an overseas British national passport 10 years ago. Why does Joseph Zen call for a democratic form of government in Hong Kong, even as he lives off of an autocratic institution funded by the donations of those who fear damnation?
