Hexuan: Most of what you write only supports what I wrote earlier. Yes, parental interference is the cause of much of what is wrong with the English education of children here. The selection of teachers based on race is, in my view, an extension of this problem. All I am doing is laying responsibility for hiring preferences squarely on the shoulders of those to whom it belongs: the parents. As tactless as a Caucasian only ad may be, most other schools have similar policies. These policies come from the preferences of parents (as irrational as they may be) and the competitive forces that compel the schools to listen to them. I do not think it is fair to pillory schools for trying to survive in a competitive marketplace.
The comparison between Taiwan and blacks in the US is an apples and oranges comparison. Why? Well, the main reason being blacks in the US WERE AND ARE CITIZENS OF THAT SOCIETY (the emphasis is added not to insult, but to make the point). We are not members of this society in the proper sense. Taiwan is not, to my knowledge, an immigrant country (at least not for non-Chinese). Why do I mention this? We do not have the rights and privileges of citizens. Blacks in the US are supposed to have equal access to opportunities as citizens of that country. There is no assumption of equal rights for foreigners in this country. A foreigner is denied an opportunity based on race (or for that matter is offered one), so what? If we want equal rights, we need to go back to the country from which we obtained our passport.
A discussion about the innate wrongness of these hiring policies only succeeds in coming across as patronizing to me. I am well aware of how wrong it is to deny a capable person a job based on the fact that they aren’t white. I do not support it in any way, as I do not support other silly obstacles, policies or other nonsense that is a result of parental whims.
As for your final point about the government’s take on children learning two languages simultaneously: If you are referring to the ban on English kindies, I am in support of the ban. Firstly, there is plenty of support for the notion that basic literacy in one’s first language is best when learning a second. Wait until the youngsters have learned their own language well enough before introducing English. Second, the students from these kindies are at a disadvantage when they enter elementary school. Teachers have told me how these kids cannot perform as well as their classmates in Chinese, require a lot of extra attention from teachers and can be thought of as stupid by others. Finally, if this country wants to ensure that its culture and languages are preserved in its next generation, I am in favor of that as well.
[quote=“Vannyel”][quote=“Jive Turkey”][quote=“Vannyel”]
But since I seriously doubt you really want an explanation I will leave you to ponder how what is morally acceptable in one culture is not in another. [/quote]
One simple question for you sir: Is it wrong, in your opinion, for an employer to discriminate against potential employees because of race? A simple yes or no will suffice.[/quote]
There is no simple answer…in Taiwan, ‘no’ because I refuse to apply U.S. standards to this culture (or any other). In the U.S., it is illegal therefore wrong. I don’t hire or fire so personally I don’t ponder the question too much. And yes, I have been denied a job because of my race - it was in the U.S. and unlike Taiwan they didn’t bother to list it in the newspapers so I wasted my time applying for a job that was looking for a minority employee to fill their government quota. Lucky for me, I found a better job.
[forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.ph … 573#230573](The Mormon invasion of Taiwan - thoughts?
Simply saying, “Who are we to impose our own cultural morals on them?” would have done much better than either one of the posts you have made on this subject…both of which were rather tedious reads.
From your little sycophantic comment on being a “victim” of reverse discrimination, I don’t think we need to guess how fair you think it is that Asians and blacks are getting theirs here in Taiwan in their job hunt.
I’d hate to break it to you, sweetheart, but many jobs for Taiwanese schools that discriminate do not openly advertise that they want only white people. I learned this the hard way when I spent nearly 6 months trying to find a job despite having a year of ESL teaching experience in the US and a year of studying Mandarin under my belt in addition to my educational qualifications. I doubt the people they chose to hire over me had accomplished any of those things.
The fact that they hire less qualified people who fit a certain physical description over definitely more qualified non-white people makes it much more different than the so-called racism that you faced in the US where both candidates are supposed to be similarly qualified before race becomes an issue.
[quote=“ImaniOU”][quote=“Vannyel”][quote=“Jive Turkey”][quote=“Vannyel”]
But since I seriously doubt you really want an explanation I will leave you to ponder how what is morally acceptable in one culture is not in another. [/quote]
One simple question for you sir: Is it wrong, in your opinion, for an employer to discriminate against potential employees because of race? A simple yes or no will suffice.[/quote]
There is no simple answer…in Taiwan, ‘no’ because I refuse to apply U.S. standards to this culture (or any other). In the U.S., it is illegal therefore wrong. I don’t hire or fire so personally I don’t ponder the question too much. And yes, I have been denied a job because of my race - it was in the U.S. and unlike Taiwan they didn’t bother to list it in the newspapers so I wasted my time applying for a job that was looking for a minority employee to fill their government quota. Lucky for me, I found a better job.
[forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.ph … 573#230573](The Mormon invasion of Taiwan - thoughts?
Simply saying, “Who are we to impose our own cultural morals on them?” would have done much better than either one of the posts you have made on this subject…both of which were rather tedious reads.
From your little sycophantic comment on being a “victim” of reverse discrimination, I don’t think we need to guess how fair you think it is that Asians and blacks are getting theirs here in Taiwan in their job hunt.
I’d hate to break it to you, sweetheart, but many jobs for Taiwanese schools that discriminate do not openly advertise that they want only white people. I learned this the hard way when I spent nearly 6 months trying to find a job despite having a year of ESL teaching experience in the US and a year of studying Mandarin under my belt in addition to my educational qualifications. I doubt the people they chose to hire over me had accomplished any of those things.
The fact that they hire less qualified people who fit a certain physical description over definitely more qualified non-white people makes it much more different than the so-called racism that you faced in the US where both candidates are supposed to be similarly qualified before race becomes an issue.[/quote]
I am surprise it took you so long to respond and I appreciate the time you took to skip over TS remark - [quote]A foreigner is denied an opportunity based on race (or for that matter is offered one), so what? If we want equal rights, we need to go back to the country from which we obtained our passport. [/quote] to address my “little sycophantic comment on being a “victim” of reverse discrimination.” If anyone is being a sycophant my dear it is you - a couple of years out of college, still full of yourself and trying to prove your worth to the world. Being old enough to be your father, I consider the source and dismiss your remarks while realizing someday you may grow out of this phase. As for how fair the system here, I have said it before and I will say it again this is not my country, I am not a citizen and I don’t judge the local standards. But I could ask why you - yet again, why if you feel it’s so bad here, why did you come here? So people will feel sorry for you because “they hire less qualified people who fit a certain physical description over definitely more qualified non-white people?” Or because you couldn’t find a job in the U.S. because there you weren’t qualified?
Ah I see, TS. It’s OK to discriminate on the basis of race if those being discriminated against are NON-citizens. Thanks for clearing that up.
By the way I certainly didn’t mean to patronize Taiwanese people who engage in racial discrimination. I meant to call them a bunch of ignorant cunts. I’m sorry that didn’t come across fully.
[quote=“hexuan”]Ah I see, TS. It’s OK to discriminate on the basis of race if those being discriminated against are NON-citizens. Thanks for clearing that up.
By the way I certainly didn’t mean to patronize Taiwanese people who engage in racial discrimination. I meant to call them a bunch of ignorant cunts. I’m sorry that didn’t come across fully.[/quote]
You (and others) can disagree all you want but the fact of the matter is as long as it’s legal in Taiwan then it is ‘OK’…what you think, what I think, what all foreigners think is irrelevant to the laws in Taiwan. Why is this such a hard concept for educated people to grasp???
Except the laws in Taiwan also don’t comply with discriminatory hiring practices. As mentioned earlier in this thread:
[quote=“Mother Theresa”]Of course it’s racism. It’s also clearly illegal under Taiwan law. Want a good laugh? Check out Article 7 of the ROC Constitution:
If it were morally okay to the Taiwanese to discriminate in hiring people, then why would they have passed a law that specifically says it’s not okay? Whether for their own people or not, enough people had a problem with it to make it a law.
[quote=“ImaniOU”]Except the laws in Taiwan also don’t comply with discriminatory hiring practices. As mentioned earlier in this thread:
[quote=“Mother Theresa”]Of course it’s racism. It’s also clearly illegal under Taiwan law. Want a good laugh? Check out Article 7 of the ROC Constitution:
If it were morally okay to the Taiwanese to discriminate in hiring people, then why would they have passed a law that specifically says it’s not okay? Whether for their own people or not, enough people had a problem with it to make it a law.[/quote]
Key word being citizens and age isn’t mentioned either. Anyway, obviously we will never see eye to eye on the right of Taiwan to govern itself by its own standards.
[quote=“Mother Theresa”]Of course it’s racism. It’s also clearly illegal under Taiwan law. Want a good laugh? Check out Article 7 of the ROC Constitution:
Equal before the law doesnt mean equal before a cram school owner. I’d never discriminate against your because your skin colour is lighter than mine.
It’s just that most people can’t sing Monty Pythong songs… a major requirement for teaching my kiddies things like I like Chinese, Every Sperm is Sacred and Sit on My Face… all songs… they go along with teaching body parts and Chinese culture…
[quote=“Vannyel”][quote=“hexuan”]Ah I see, TS. It’s OK to discriminate on the basis of race if those being discriminated against are NON-citizens. Thanks for clearing that up.
By the way I certainly didn’t mean to patronize Taiwanese people who engage in racial discrimination. I meant to call them a bunch of ignorant cunts. I’m sorry that didn’t come across fully.[/quote]
You (and others) can disagree all you want but the fact of the matter is as long as it’s legal in Taiwan then it is ‘OK’…what you think, what I think, what all foreigners think is irrelevant to the laws in Taiwan. Why is this such a hard concept for educated people to grasp???[/quote]
You’re hilarious. So as long as it’s OK for the Taiwanese, it’s OK for you. You set your moral compass at whatever you feel the Taiwanese find acceptable. Ever had a thought of your own ? Do you really think I need you to tell me “Hey man you’re in Taiwan now, and gee it’s not like home!”
“If it’s legal it’s OK”… Give me a break. Can’t you understand that we are discussing out OPINIONS ? Am I not allowed to hold the opinion that racial discrimination is wrong ? I am prepared to accept your opinion that anything the Taiwanese do is right, but please spare us the faux incredulity: “Why is this such a hard concept for educated people to grasp???”
It would be my guess that many “educated” people would find your apologising for those who employ people based on race “a hard concept to grasp”.
And another thing. Who made you the appointed quasher of threads ? Your only response to anything written here is to patronise the membership of this board with your “You ain’t in Kansas anymore sonny boy” platitudes.
[quote=“Musicfan”]I’ve noticed this now and again, schools advertising for teachers that specify ‘caucasians only’ or ‘Western looking’ (whatever that is).
I don’t want this to be an ‘Is Taiwan racist?’ debate but rather does anybody here work for those schools, and why would anyone respond to an ad that was basically racist in nature…?[/quote]
Hexuan. Firstly, I am not implying that it is ok or fine by me to discriminate. My point, if you do ever take the time to read my post, is that the problem lies more with the parents’ attitudes and not as much with the schools doing the hiring. I’m repeating myself at this point, but anyway: I know for a fact that schools would love to hire non-whites – especially FBCs with Mandarin abilities far better than most other westerners-- but they cannot because THE PARENTS WANT WHITE TEACHERS. There is a point you made in one of your posts about parental interference. Think about that again and you’ll see we actually agree on more than you seem to think we do.
The patronizing point is in reference to myself, not Taiwanese. I find it patronizing and insulting when people try to tell me how wrong discrimination is, as if I don’t already know or I’m in some need of this kind of lesson. Let me be crystal clear-- as it seems some have different levels of reading comprehension-- I am not in favor of discrimination based on color of skin! I am not one of those responsible. I am not defending those responsible for it. I am merely suggesting who is really responsible for this phenomenon.
The people of this society are responsible for the hiring practices of English schools here. It is the peoples’ attitudes and beliefs that shape the hiring practices. This is the reality of working here.
Like it or not, we are foreigners living in a largely racially homogeneous society (aboriginals excepted). We are all outsiders. If we were all ROC citizens, then some discussion of equal rights might seem relevant. Because we aren’t citizens, comparisons between this condition and civil rights in the US don’t hold up.
Note to any who want to reply to my post: Please be clear on what it is I have said. Don’t embarrass yourself by wrongly attributing things to me that I haven’t said or don’t support. Please read and, more importantly, understand what I have said before you try to fling mud at my ideas. I hate being tarred and feathered by those who don’t understand my position.
Not only White, young, cute and bipedal but you don’t get hired through an interview but through an “audition”. Gosh I’ve never wanted to be in “Oklahoma” but I do have 15 years of experience TEACHING. Not good enough here.
We need a little honesty
“Inexperienced Barbie /Ken Clone wanted to babysit fractious children. Must be able to sing, dance and keep the little tikes happy. No teaching. email: mary@cuteschool.com.tw”
hey…I sent my resume to mary@cuteschool.com.tw but it came back as server does not exist error… :s
but seriously, I doubt any foreigners coming to TW would B racist enough to agree with those racist ads, but as I am a foreigner and I can see the buxiban’s point of view, they are a business meeting the demands of their customers, I would patronize the school, because if you want to boycott the racist policies, you should boycott the parents (not sure how, maybe not teach their kidz?) not the school…er not sure if that made sense.
TW is a racist society, from my short stay here, and YES they judge ppl’s ability by how they look…I don’t like it, but it doesn’t bother me enough to go back to Canada…when it does I;ll book my ticket
It doesn’t matter if the law says they are not, as even the ppl who have been here for a week quickly realize, taiwans laws seldomly convey what actually happens on da “street”, and I doubt TW judges would patronize complaintz by foreignerz
[quote]You’re hilarious. So as long as it’s OK for the Taiwanese, it’s OK for you. You set your moral compass at whatever you feel the Taiwanese find acceptable. Ever had a thought of your own ? Do you really think I need you to tell me “Hey man you’re in Taiwan now, and gee it’s not like home!” [/quote] Obviously someone needs to tell you since you don’t seem to grasp that point very well. And at the risk of repeating myself YET AGAIN, if I didn’t accept Taiwan the way it was I would leave - wow, and that is a thought out of my mind without any consultation with a Taiwanese person. Imagine that.
[quote]“If it’s legal it’s OK”… Give me a break. Can’t you understand that we are discussing out OPINIONS ? Am I not allowed to hold the opinion that racial discrimination is wrong ? I am prepared to accept your opinion that anything the Taiwanese do is right, but please spare us the faux incredulity: “Why is this such a hard concept for educated people to grasp???”[/quote] Trust me, the incredulity is sincere. If you accept my opinion why are you having such a hard time with it then. I accept yours and have expressed mine (in case you missed it - “if it’s legal it’s OK” is an opinion).
I never apologized for Taiwan or it’s laws. It’s their country.
I quash threads by voicing my opinion yet you do what? Elevate them by bitching about how Taiwan isn’t the same as back home or like some Western country? Seems like for someone who supports equality, etc. you aren’t very tolerant of people with different viewpoints or morals…are you becoming the very thing you despise the most - a bigot?
What utter rubbish. Been in Taiwan a few years and think you know it all. Going to lecture me are you ? What the fuck do you know about Taiwan ? You certainly haven’t posted anything on this website that betrays any knowledge of Taiwan or its people. All you do is repeat the same old tired crap over and over again.
Has anybody else noticed how Vannyel actually says absolutely nothing whatsoever, but merely repeats ad nauseum the mantra: “Hey it’s Taiwan, man, and you can’t criticise it man cause you’re not, like, Taiwanese.”
So, apart from being a patronising troll, do you or do you not have an opinion on the matter of racial discrimination in Taiwan ? If so, post it. If not then stop criticising people who do.
Can you get it into your head that there are foreigners who have lived here longer than you and who have forgotten more about Taiwan than you will ever know ? What is this endless “Hey this is Taiwan” shit ? So you think we’re all stupid, is that it ? Ah fuck it - into the killfile you go… I can only hope you’re a troll having a bit of a laugh…
I disagree with the posters who are trying to push the whole burden of blame onto the parents. Are the parents supposed to be the experts on education, or is that the school’s job? In my opinion, the schools AND the parents must both bear responsibility. Yes, the schools are trying to meet parental demands, but a white face in the classroom is merely one of many things that parents might find attractive about a school. The fact that some schools do hire non-whites shows that it’s not absolutely essential for survival.
I have no real problem with people who choose to work at one of those schools - hell, it’s a job, and if you’re lucky enough to fit the profile, whether that be white, young, female, etc. good for you. But don’t kid yourself that it’s ‘all the fault of the parents’ and absolve the schools from all responsibility just because it makes you feel better. The schools have a choice too - to pick the best teacher, regardless of appearance, and educate the parents about their choice. It may not be a great choice, or even seen as a choice of particular relevance given Taiwan’s worldview, but it’s a choice. A school that hires a white teacher with fractured English over a non-white native speaker is not acting in anyone’s best interests but their own. However, I realise the odds are nowadays that they can get someone competent (enough) and white, and so the whole problem conveniently goes away…
Fine I understand. But your argument seems to be that racial discrimination is somehow alright in Taiwan, or is at least capable of being rationalised away, because it is carried out by Taiwanese in their own country.
My argument is that there are certain activites which are either wrong or they are right, and no amount of cultural relativism can change that. For example, female genital mutilation. Why is that wrong if done in England, but right if done parts of Africa ? Human sacrifices. Right if done by one culture, wrong if done by another ?
If there are cultural differences between Taiwanese and other cultures such that racial discrimination can be acceptable here but not there, what are they ? Why on earth do we bother with racial discrimination laws in the West if there are circumstances under which they are not necessary ? If not having such laws really is beneficial for the Taiwanese, then what is different about Taiwan that allows this situation to exist ? And so on.
Simply saying, as Vannyel does, that this is Taiwan and that is that, does not really answer the question.
I haven’t grasped exactly what it is you are saying. The discussion is irrelevant because we are foreigners in a homogenous society ? Why does the clause appear in the ROC constitution ? Is that for the benefit of foreigners who might be reading it ? A Chinese person put that there. Why did they do that ? If I suddenly became an ROC citizen, like Satellite TV or Poagao, would the discussion be more, or less, relevant ?
Lecture you? I express my opinion and you go off the deep end. Pretty defense about the number of years you’ve been here. I didn’t realize this was a pissing contest to determine who had the right to express an opinion. What is the cut-off? 5 years? 10 years? 15 years? Who the hell do you think you are to judge how much I know about Taiwan or the people? I don’t need to justify my opinion about anything to you or anyone else. An opinion is just that – an opinion. And just to clarify - a quick search revealed that I have indeed used the words ‘leave’ and ‘taiwan’ 41 times in over 900 posts.
Quite frankly I never spoke like that during the 70s and I sure as hell don’t now.
Can you not read?? I have posted my opinion and you have blasted it because you don’t agree with it.
I am having a great laugh at your over-reaction. But back to this “there are foreigners who have lived here longer than you and who have forgotten more about Taiwan than you will ever know” nonsense. As I asked earlier…what is the magical number before it’s ok with you to express an opinion? Since you seem to have all the answers, perhaps you can tell me how long I will stay in Taiwan. I’d really like to know. It will help me sort out some things. If I’m only going to be in the country until the end of the month I might need to pack. Or if I’m not leaving for another couple of years I might want to invest in a new scooter. But then again you have never met me and don’t know anything about me except what I have posted on forumosa.com. Let’s see, a man’s life summed up in roughly 920 posts on a forum.
But, once again, since you seem to have missed it, I will clarify my position – If Taiwan has no laws against racial discrimination against foreigners then it is all right with me. They are breaking no laws. If Taiwan has laws against racial discrimination against foreigners then it is not all right with me, they are breaking the law and should be duly punished. This is my personal opinion and I have held this opinion of every country I have ever visited or lived in.
