CCP Forumosa Members?

It’s getting fruitless trying to convince these “Pro-Unificationers” that the reason WHY Taiwan can’t claim independence is because China has a gun to their head!

They argue endlessly and in circles for hours… bringing up this and that fact about the actions of the people in Taiwan - not ever willing to admit that one country’s actions can affect another’s.

Don’t they understand that if, hypothetically, China did not interefere with Taiwan - that the people just might voice their true opinion?!?! Wanting to keep the status quo means not wanting to face a possible war.

Does anyone else feel that?

The point is not to win an arguement. People need to accept the fact that others have differing views and opinions. I have my own personal befiefs about the “blue vs. green” debate, but I also enjoy reading different views on the subject. We only truly lose when we close our minds to what others have to say.

If you’re not willing to fight and die for freedom, then you don’t deserve it. Sad but true.

It’s nice to be living comfortably where you are and talk about ideas. However, as you should know, Asians tend to be practical minded folks. In the end of the game, they don’t want wars, ideology or whatever interfere with their livelihood and life. They want a government that can take care of its business and allow them to prosper in relative safety. When the government can’t even do this basic stuff, you see… Ilan and Chiayi going to the KMT. That’s almost like saying Boston and Lexington would’ve supported the Brits, pre-Revolutionary times.

That’s true in any case, nothing is in isolation. Saying and being Chinese doesn’t equate to let’s return to the CCP or PRC necessarily. Folks make the fallacy that Taiwanese does not equal to Chinese and therefore dejure and defacto independence. That’s DPP racial politics for you. Lots of folks believe it’s wrong - the ones living here that is.

[quote=“shawn_c”]
Don’t they understand that if, hypothetically, China did not interefere with Taiwan - that the people just might voice their true opinion?!?! Wanting to keep the status quo means not wanting to face a possible war.[/quote]

First, you misunderstand what exactly is the status quo. Second, it’s not the KMT that wants to change it. It’s the DPP that wants to change it. Third, if you’ve been to China or know people from China, these people don’t care as much about Taiwan as Taiwan cares about itself. Those folks are just too busy making China bigger and better and learning from the foreigners. Taiwanese can borrow a few lessons of country building from them.

On my trip back from Beijing, I took a cab ride home, pre-election. Betelnut taxi wisdom for you:

  1. Taiwan can’t compete against China, it’s a shame we can’t do anything.
  2. Taiwan treats foreigners like shit.*
  3. Thai MRT worker scandal is a disgrace.
  4. China’s really nice and beautiful and I love Shenzhen girls. :astonished:

What I got out of my chat with cabbie was even the loyal DPP folks know when shit stinks, you gotta clean out the place.

*When I refer to foreigners, I also include overseas Chinese as well. We’re not Taiwanese after all and they don’t like non-Taiwanese. So as much as you and STOP_MA banter about how KMT sucks ass, the fact of the matter is, the DPP kind of people hates your kind more than you hate the KMT. I sense that the DPP will become more virulent and aim to throw out all the foreigners between now and 2008. It’ll be an interesting next two years for the middle of the road DPP and KMT folks.

That might not be the best example, Cartman. Shawn here’s Canadian, so his political heritage comes from the “unification side” of that war. The Canadian colonies were the original ‘pan-Bluers’, siding primarily with the British imperialists in fighting against the 13 original American colonies. :smiling_imp:

[quote=“shawn_c”]It’s getting fruitless trying to convince these “Pro-Unificationers” that the reason WHY Taiwan can’t claim independence is because China has a gun to their head!
[/quote]
Shawn,

If you think the most unfair thing on this planet is the fact that Taiwan can’t unilaterally declare independence, then you have much to learn about this planet.

[quote=“Yellow Cartman”]

If you’re not willing to fight and die for freedom, then you don’t deserve it. Sad but true.[/quote]

I agree. And Ma and the KMT will not be willing to die for their freedom. Hell, they wouldn’t even be willing to spend one day in jail for their freedom.

No. It’s the other way around. Taiwan is defacto independent, therefore, Taiwanese are not Chinese. Just as Americans with Chinese descent are not Chinese – they are Americans or Chinese-Americans.

The CCP, KMT and DPP want to change it. In fact, the CCP have already changed it with their anti-secession law.

What an insulting statement! I’m sure a lot of Chinese cared when the PRC prevented Taiwan from dealing with the WHO directly during the SARS epidemic. And I’m sure most Chinese don’t even know that happened.

Except when it comes to human rights and democracy (and no – I’m not talking about the U.S.)

[quote]On my trip back from Beijing, I took a cab ride home, pre-election. Betelnut taxi wisdom for you:

  1. Taiwan can’t compete against China, it’s a shame we can’t do anything.[/quote]

Yeah. When the workers get paid slave wages in a land of a billion, it does pose a problem.

I’ve been treated extremely well by the Taiwanese. In fact, I think the friendliness of the Taiwanese is one of the most enduring aspects of this culture. Your point could not be any more of a lie.

I find Taiwanese women much more appealing.

The DPP have been cleaning the shit left by the KMT for the past 10+ years. And the KMT still can’t stop shitting.

Why are trying to convince anyone?.. it’s like saying the reason why Hawaii cannot unilaterally declare independence is because Washington has a gun to it’s head… or to go back further, the reason why the US could not declare independence is because England had a gun to their heads… boo hoo, very sad, but it’s redundant… Like YC said, you get freedom by fighting for it and usually thousands die in the process, it’s not pretty but it’s a historical precedent that a student of history like yourself should be aware of… If the Taiwanese really wanted independence as much as you’d like them to in your romanticized Brave Heart version of the Taiwan straights reality, then the only thing for them to do is load up every able bodied man, arm themselves to the teeth and set sail for the shores of FuJian…and have the courage and wherewithal to fight for their freedom like everyone else did when the autonomy and independence of a slice of geography was in dispute throughout the course of history

Sorry Plasmatron, not to overhsadow your good points, which I’d rather someone else dealt with … busy day here.

But:

[quote]Quote:
2. Taiwan treats foreigners like shit.*

I’ve been treated extremely well by the Taiwanese. In fact, I think the friendliness of the Taiwanese is one of the most enduring aspects of this culture. Your point could not be any more of a lie. [/quote]

Not a lie, a very common perception in China and elsewhere in SE Asia. Taiwanese factory bosses are generaklly despised … they’re up there with the HK scum that set up their caged factories in Guangdong for underpaying and abusing, etc. Fact of life. I’ve been in these factories mate. However, my (white arse) has been treated with the most unimaginable hospitality by Taiwanese and in my mind they are the world’s most friendly and gracious . . but then I aren’t a Hunan peasant churning out labels for the electronics factory or a Thai/Philipino road worker.

[quote]Quote:
4. China’s really nice and beautiful and I love Shenzhen girls.

I find Taiwanese women much more appealing. [/quote]

Agreed, it’s also nice to be able to talk about something other than the brutal seasons on the Hunan/Sichuan farmlands. (JOKING). There are indeed loads of beautiful women in Shenzhen but way too many of them are, erh, professionals. Some decent clubbing and lasses though, have to grant you, but somehow, or for some reason, the Tawanese tottie factor is hard to beat. At least in in my book.

HG

STOP_MA, you’re a little new to Taiwan and Asia aren’t you? :laughing:

That’s okay, there’s a process of adjustment. Everyone goes through it. Hopefully not as painful as some of the others before you… Good luck :slight_smile:

[quote=“plasmatron”]so why Taiwan thinks the world owes it a free lunch and should fight independence wars on it’s behalf or even further, that the whole world, China included, should against their own best interests, just roll over and do what a handful of pitchfork wielding TI peasants on an insignificant little island want is beyond the comprehension of any rationally minded observer, which non coincidentally is the exact reason why there is a distinct lack of rational minds in the ranks of the TI proponents

[quote=“cctang”][quote=“Yellow Cartman”]
That’s almost like saying Boston and Lexington would’ve supported the Brits, pre-Revolutionary times.
[/quote]
That might not be the best example, Cartman. Shawn here’s Canadian, so his political heritage comes from the “unification side” of that war. The Canadian colonies were the original ‘pan-Bluers’, siding primarily with the British imperialists in fighting against the 13 original American colonies. :smiling_imp: [/quote]

My bad cctang. I stand corrected :laughing:

:bravo: :bravo:

Too true. If foreigners only knew how racist and xenophobic the Presidential Office people are, they would vomit. I think it is so just that the DPP’s fortunes were sank by the K-city labor riot. :bravo: :notworthy:

[quote=“Yellow Cartman”]STOP_MA, you’re a little new to Taiwan and Asia aren’t you? :laughing:

That’s okay, there’s a process of adjustment. Everyone goes through it. Hopefully not as painful as some of the others before you… Good luck :slight_smile:[/quote]

I don’t know if you call 4 years “new” or not. I’m not sure I know how this relates to my comments, however. I’ve been integreated into the culture quite a bit. I’ve already gone through that adjustment. But, I’m sure I’ll have a few more adjustments to make.

[quote=“Feiren”][quote=“plasmatron”]so why Taiwan thinks the world owes it a free lunch and should fight independence wars on it’s behalf or even further, that the whole world, China included, should against their own best interests, just roll over and do what a handful of pitchfork wielding TI peasants on an insignificant little island want is beyond the comprehension of any rationally minded observer, which non coincidentally is the exact reason why there is a distinct lack of rational minds in the ranks of the TI proponents

[quote=“STOP_Ma”][quote=“Yellow Cartman”]STOP_MA, you’re a little new to Taiwan and Asia aren’t you? :laughing:

That’s okay, there’s a process of adjustment. Everyone goes through it. Hopefully not as painful as some of the others before you… Good luck :slight_smile:[/quote]

I don’t know if you call 4 years “new” or not. I’m not sure I know how this relates to my comments, however. I’ve been integreated into the culture quite a bit. I’ve already gone through that adjustment. But, I’m sure I’ll have a few more adjustments to make.[/quote]

Your “great” English communication skills have suffered as a result :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp:

[quote=“Chewycorns”][quote=“STOP_Ma”][quote=“Yellow Cartman”]STOP_MA, you’re a little new to Taiwan and Asia aren’t you? :laughing:

That’s okay, there’s a process of adjustment. Everyone goes through it. Hopefully not as painful as some of the others before you… Good luck :slight_smile:[/quote]

I don’t know if you call 4 years “new” or not. I’m not sure I know how this relates to my comments, however. I’ve been integreated into the culture quite a bit. I’ve already gone through that adjustment. But, I’m sure I’ll have a few more adjustments to make.[/quote]

Your “great” English communication skills have suffered as a result :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp:[/quote]

Yes. A typo. Your on the ball today, Chewycorns. :bravo:

[quote]Quote:
2. Taiwan treats foreigners like shit.*

I’ve been treated extremely well by the Taiwanese. In fact, I think the friendliness of the Taiwanese is one of the most enduring aspects of this culture. Your point could not be any more of a lie. [/quote]

The validity of the above statment depends on which foreigners you’re talking about. I think in general, white folks get treated extremely well in taiwan. Its almost as if the locals here have a ‘white loving’ complex. There’s definetly a pecking order with caucasians at the top.

You’re not on the ball today, STOP_Ma.

Amusing to find TI supporters claiming the KMT isn’t willing to die for its principles. A few hundred thousand have given their lives in battle to its name, not to mention the vets still walking around.

By the way, exactly how many people have willingly sacrificed their lives in the name of Taiwan independence? (Notice the willing part, before you put up a post about White Terror victims that does nothing to show domestic support for the movement.)

I don’t see a line forming anywhere to fight, just some shrewd politicians milking the issue.

Unfortunately, those principles don’t include freedom and democracy. :frowning:

And many Taiwanese spent much jail time for their views on democracy during the KMT dictatorship.

thechinadesk.tripod.com/dying_fo … ndence.htm


Question One: “If the Chinese Communists attack Taiwan, would you be willing to defend Taiwan’s territory?”

  • Unwilling: 65%
  • Willing: 35%

I don’t think the unwillingness to defend Taiwan in case of a Mainland attack is pan-Blue vs. pan-Green issue.

If non-ROC citizens want to defend Taiwan, I guess ROC citizens will just sit back and watch.