[quote=“cctang”]Very nice SC! I hope you found these yourself.
As I already posted in this thread, I do think the article is factually correct, as your links confirm. It’s natural for mainlanders to question the implications of these disclosures. (And personally, I think mainland journalists are also playing up this news as a way of striking at local corruption as well.)
But I also stand by my point that it’s insulting to our intelligence to suggest this disclosure is some how going to strike a significant blow to the PRC political system. For example, from the links you provided:
我知道,我也看得十分清楚,近年来,我们国家的民主政治在不断的进步着.
I know, I can see with absolute clarity, that political democracy in our country has been continuously improving in recent years.
Would you agree with them on that, too?[/quote]
Dude, chillout. I just said some people were questioning the effectiveness of their own government in combating corruption in light of the fact that Chen Shui Bian’s son in law was arrested.
A significant blow to the PRC political system? Why gee, why would I ever want harm to our dream system of a Tiananmen Square massacre against innocent but dissident students? Sheesh. Of course not! Loyalty to the CCP! Forever and Ever! May the glory of the Chinese race be supreme for a thousand thousand years to come! Satisfied? What rating out of 5 do I get this time?
On another thread you criticize the KMT for making a circus out of Taiwan politics and the entire movement to remove CSB from office.
On this thread you’re praising the KMT imitative in arresting Chao Chien-ming because some Japanese paper reported it made the PRC looks bad.[/quote]
I am not praising the KMT initiative at all.
I posted the article because I find it an amusing after effect. I think the KMT’s recent actions unfounded and hypocritical, as I don’t see them asking the dads in law of various corrupt KMT officials to step down. Heck Chiu Yi is STILL ON TV running around and avoiding jail and yet demanding that President Chen to step down. Funky chicken! Chiu Yi hasn’t even provided hard damning evidence of Chao’s guilt.
Edit: To clarify, I find it amusing that China originally spin to news in an attempt to say that Taiwan’s democracy was a sham or something. In the end it had the opposite effect.
Threatened what?
I don’t care about whatever you think you are or claim you are, I just dislike people who insist that they have a right to choose the identity of others. As you’ve seen, I often say Taiwanese, people of Taiwan, etc, I never said “ALL THE PEOPLE ON TAIWAN ARE CHINESE AND SHOULD BE UNIFIED FOR THE GLORY OF THE CHINESE RACE”* (except when being sarcastic).
“Obviously you hold race more important than anything else like good human rights or civil liberties.”
This is laughable. The truth of the matter is, for all the identity- and race-consciousness that Chinese nationalists may exhibit, Hoklo-TI nationalists are ten time worse on every count. How else do you get such silly things as “native” vs. “non-native” Taiwanese and these hair-splitting “ethnic” groupings in one province?
If there is enough evidence against Chiu Yi, then arrest him. But that is not reality is it.
So are you suggesting that the DPP, unlike the KMT, never made an unfounded accusation against the opposing party.
Taiwan is the wild west of politics. If you don’t have the stomach for it or cannot bear to watch your idol go down in flames, I suggest you not follow the news for the next 1.5 years.
Well, that was my point. I don’t think this news has had any “effect” on Chinese society of any kind.
You say the above as if it should be self-evident that human rights or civil liberties are more important than all else. I have no criticisms of the human rights and civil liberties; but I do strongly criticize those who have a very limited definition of what these human rights and liberties might be. Are we really to believe that we should celebrate the fate of people living in utter poverty in banana republics with double-digit infant mortality rates… as long as they have the mechanisms of a democratic vote?
I value every element based on what it brings to my life, and to the lives of those who matter to me. I have seen “human rights and civil liberties” used as tools for anything but noble causes. Under this criteria, apparently societies in which generations are trapped in poverty/ignorance is acceptable. Even worse, if we think “human rights and civil liberties” are important, we are told we should embrace societies in which political chaos dominates while future prosperity is thrown out the door. For me, it makes no sense. Even the United States Declaration of Indepedence stated that the “pursuit of happiness” is an inalienable human right. This is a more difficult term to define, but in my opinion, it’s importance is critical. And I know that in many nations around the world where they have the right to vote, and to read a free press… the right to pursue happiness strangely seems missing.
I want to have the right to pursue happiness. I want my extended family, my descendents, and my friends to have the same right. Personally, I believe a strong and united Chinese nation makes that more likely.
…As should be well evident to all who step back and think about it, without being tainted by their OWN nationalism. Well said. I understand the rash idealism that people may gravitate towards when they are uninvolved in the process and when such matters do not affect their daily lives, but hard evidence points toward gradual improvement as the most successful way towards those same ideals in modern times. And in historical terms, once the process was started, Europe (Britain in particular) took hundreds of years and the US almost 200 years to reach the level of human rights that some here would find acceptable. I’m not saying it should take hundreds of years to fix the deficiencies in China, but that evolutionary change has been the standard and human rights is a modern phenomenon which the West itself has only recently come to terms with, long after it began to trumpet its alleged achievements in the arena.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]If there is enough evidence against Chiu Yi, then arrest him. But that is not reality is it.
So are you suggesting that the DPP, unlike the KMT, never made an unfounded accusation against the opposing party.
Taiwan is the wild west of politics. If you don’t have the stomach for it or cannot bear to watch your idol go down in flames, I suggest you not follow the news for the next 1.5 years.[/quote]
Chiu Yi is a convicted criminal that is still outside because he has the protection from KMT. That is what you get for being a legislator…
Loyalty to the CCP! Forever and Ever! May the glory of the Chinese race be supreme for a thousand thousand years to come! [/quote]
Chill out man. We all know your strong feelings toward the Chinese race.
Speaking of race, I feel that some Taiwanese Hokklo’s racism is of the most strange form. It is a wired combination of persecution mania, self-hatred, and confusion of its own racial/ethnical identity.
LOL, wait a second, Chiu Yi is convicted and has to report for 18 months of jail, ordered so by a KuoMinTang affiliated judge. Meanwhile Chiu Yi is all over TV pointing to President Chen, saying that President Chen should step down for the allegations of the president’s son in law, except his son’s in law isn’t even convicted. Pot calling the kettle black at its finest.
Secondly, the Chicomm Race-Nazi’s are saying that by saying you are Taiwanese, means you are racist… going so far as to label all Taiwanese Hoklo’s as RACIST. What kind of hogwash is that? Let me get this straight, you guys are saying that if someone chooses NOT to identify with you that its somehow racist? Wow. I wonder what any Aryans who didn’t want to identify with Germany had to say about that.
Meanwhile the Chinese government spends the last 50 years having had battles over with half its neighbors, usually over things like reunification of the Chinese race and a manifest destiny under the guise of retaking all historical lands even if it was vague.
It is nothing about being racist, people just use that card to shame people.
Are we forgetting there was a chinese invasion of Taiwan (the ones that fled with the KMT where so many we can call it an invasion), because they held power and crushed the people who where here living peacefully their lives. Why don’t people say that in the first 20 years of rule of Taiwan little changed (if not gotten worse). So if it is ok to give 20 years to KMT to make Taiwan a better place, why not give 20 years to the Taiwanese to make it even better? Are the KMT’ers loosing their land, their jobs and their rights inbetween? No, they are happily making money.
What people should care is about why did Chen You-hao (陳由豪) allegedely gave $60M to the DPP and $600M to the KMT? Did he gave the money out for his kind heart? And why did he gave 10X more to the KMT?
But, even if CSB steps down, will also any politician allegedely involved in a corruption case (or is familly, or is aides) also step down? What good an example would CSB would be, if we know for sure that almost no one would follow? Example for what?
If Chiu Yi is really a convicted criminal that is still outside as you implies then the Govt of the day is simply incapable of seeing that justice is not only seen but done. All excuses for not acting is merely just one more boring lame excuse.
No one “gave” the KMT anything. They fought for it. They paid for it. And when that didn’t work they begged for it. Read up on KMT history before you come to the conclusion that anything was handed to them on a silver platter.
Well looking at CSB performance, why should anyone in their right mind give that “Taiwanese” anymore chances. Leadership is not Lotto. You don’t go hoping and wishing for the next 14 years that some “Taiwanese” will show up and lead Taiwan.
And what does it matter if the leader is “Taiwanese,” “Hakka,” “Aboriginal” or “WSR” as long as that person can lead and improve Taiwan.
If you value that the next leader has to be Hoklo Taiwanese, you limit the pool of talent that can lead Taiwan. And with only 24 million qualified people that’s not a lot to choose from.
Maybe because he knows the KMT are more helpful when it comes to economics.
This is a good precedent if you think about it. Let’s say Mayor Ma is president after 2008. Then we discover he is not as clean as his image. You can use the same recall mechanism to remove him from office. You want to make Taiwan politics clean, then you need an effective method of removing and punishing the people in office, even the President.
I’d really like to meet these “Chicomm Race-Nazi’s” some day. They sound like fascinating products of your imagination.
These folks label “all Taiwanese Hoklo’s are racist”? Did you miss the memo, too? Do you still not realize that Lien Chan and Chiu Yi are Taiwanese Hoklo?
I’m really tired of “discussing” these points with you. It’s a little like debating with my nieces. But let me take another stab at it and summarize:
I call some Hoklo’s racist; some of these folks clearly are, when they refer to all Chinese as zhina “pigs” and whores, while also insisting on the inferiority of Chinese culture as a whole.
some (on this forum) have implied the pan-Blue parties in Taiwan are racist. I pointed out that the pan-Blue party leadership consists of numerous Hoklos (Chiu Yi, Lien Chan, Wang Jinping).
No one has ever labeled “all Taiwanese Hoklo” as being racist. No one has bashed Taiwanese culture for any reason; I consider Taiwanese culture a key aspect of Chinese culture. Maybe instead of constantly making accusations, you should stop for a second and think about why you keep getting these issues wrong.
ac, first, I allready posted somewhere that the president should be a foreigner with no conexions inside this country, and allready gave some ideas as people.
second, he gave 10X more money to the KMT because he was sure that we would “win” 10X the money he gave to KMT, while he limited the ammount he gave to DPP because one can never be sure…
third
then the moment CSB steps down, all the people which have or his family members, been allegedely in any corruption should step down also. Do you want to brind a roll of toilet paper to start putting all the names, starting with Ma himself. Let us not forget the Fuban Bank…
I’m just applying the same resoning to everyone. Wouldn’t it be nice if just because someone says you are corrupt you have to step down of your position… It would be a never ending roll of people going to the power and stepping down. I guess that in a matter of few years, they would have to lower the minimum age of the legislators to 14 in order to have people who are eligible.
For this reason, recalling a president is so dificult. If it was easy, it would be a even worse nightmare…
[quote=“mr_boogie”]ac, first, I allready posted somewhere that the president should be a foreigner with no conexions inside this country, and allready gave some ideas as people.
[/quote]
I’ll give that some thought, as soon as Portugal appoints someone from Hong Kong to run its government. After all, according to Transparency International’s corruption perception index, Portugal is significantly more corrupt than Hong Kong. You poor Portugese people.
That said, I don’t think CSB should step down just because he was “accused” of corruption. I think he should step down when the evidence suggesting he’s corrupt is overwhelming, even if it doesn’t meet the legal standard for conviction.
well, now you know why I hate corruption so much… so good most of the laws we have in Portugal now are EU ones…
If you think Portugal is extremelly corrupt, because of 2 factors:
a prolongued dictatorship that basically made Portugal isolated from the world
the counter-revolution years after the end of dictatorship, which increased only the corruption
So now you know why I cannot in any possible way support KMT.
Also, I got out of Portugal as soon as I finished my studies, so I guess you know one of the reasons why the portuguese brains are either in the government or in foreign countries.
“Countries that have improved their rating since the 2004 index were Argentina, Austria, Bolivia, Estonia, France, Guatemala, Honduras, Hong Kong, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Lebanon, Moldova, Nigeria, Qatar, Slovakia, South Korea, Taiwan, Turkey, Ukraine, and Yemen.”
they surelly must be joking, no? Or, wait, it is not a Taiwanese non-governmental post… how can it be possible???
I don’t know if you care about improving the state of affairs in Portugal at all, but let’s assume you were. I’m curious… what’s your recommended solution?
Do you think the only way Portugal could be turned around is if we appoint some HK Chinese with no local links to run your own government?