Chen shooting revisited

[Betelnut]

@taiwansotherside

@fanglangzhe,

The KMT still exists and is popular partially because it is not and was not nearly as bad as its enemies make it out to be, and perhaps because there is no other party out there that fills its role. Far from being a tool of some repressive dictator, the party has made real accomplishments that people appreciate. Western values towards democracy and totalitarianism vary dramatically from Asian values, so much of the preaching that goes on in these forums is completely isolated from the real issues that drive the voters.

Of course, pan-green supporters gleefully take advantage of the fact that a cursory examination of the information available in English paints the KMT in a bad light. Don’t expect most of these people to encourage you to move beyond the simplistic view.

This post is mostly in response to the post on Page 6 that took place right after the post I have quoted above.

In my posts about the Taipei County election thread, I wrote some notes about how the election fraud was committed in the last presidential election, and how the CEC was setting things up that could be considered as leaving room for fraud, and I didn’t get very intelligent responses. Just the usual “you’re an idiot” kind of response.

I’ve been looking into the election fraud that took place last March since last year, and have found out many interesting things and wrote down some of my thoughts here.

I must say that since living in Taiwan since May 2004, most Westerners I’ve met are extremely biased against the KMT and the things they know and say are pretty much what DPP supporters like telling everybody around the world.

I’ve never met a Westerner in Taiwan that is capable of seeing the DPP for what a lot of people in Taiwan see it as. It’s interesting.

When visiting China, Hong Kong, and the States, Westerners who know something about Taiwan are usually not biased towards the DPP or KMT. They’re not pro-Beijing either however.

The main difference I’ve found is that most of them can recognize that Chen Shui-Bian’s shooting incident was staged and that the election was in fact fishy. What I mean is that they just look at the 319 story and they use their common sense and it’s looks really obvious to them that Chen Shui-Bian had every motivation to fake the shooting incdient. Most of them can figure it out, and others seem to be suspicious.

Meanwhile, most Westernerns here in Taiwan no matter how smart they are and no matter how much they know about politics and history mostly hate the KMT and all say that Lien and Soong are sore-losers.

My main comment is that Pan Green supporters and especially Westerners have totally misinterpreted the situation since the March 2004 election.

Isn’t it reasonable for Lien and Soong to protest in front of the Presidential Office if Chen Shui-Bian staged a shooting the day before the election, then used DPP ungerground radios to spread rumors that it was Communist China and the KMT who did it, then initiated a fake National Security Mechanism preventing certain police and military people from voting (I’ve spoken to a Navy officer who confirmed that he actually couldn’t vote that day), and then committed fraud all around the island on 3.20?

If such a thing happened the other way around, can you imagine how Chen Shui-Bian would have reacted? DPP supporters from Southern Taiwan would have burned down the KMT office and marched into the Presidential Office in the name of throwing out these foreigners who oppressed and cheated us Taiwanese.

I know that the validity of the election and shooting incident are controversial issues, but I can assure people that Chen Shui-Bian did in fact committ massive election fraud and that the shooting incident was definitely staged by him and the NSB agents he was with.

I’m not claiming that because I side with the Pan Blues on every issue and believe everything they say, but because I’ve been researching both of those issues from many angles since last year.

I know that the so called High Court ruled that there was no evidence or proof of fraud and that that is the arguement that pro-green people use over and over again. Just like the Dr. Henry Lee arguemnt. They use it over and over again because they don’t need to look into the situation any farther.

Pan Blue arguments for why the High Court did not consider the evidence provided and why the shooting was staged are much stronger and more detailed.

I’m not going to get into it all right now, but I would like to say that it is only a matter of time before certain people who know that Chen’s governement was preparing the fraud and that his shooting incident was phony will start talking. If the DPP ever steps out of office, some of those people may start talking.

Like I said in my Taipei County thread, there was a video taken of election staff committing fraud in Sanchong, Taipei County for Chen. It’s been played at the 327 rally and some political talk shows. It has to be played in slow-motion to see them clearly manipulating the ballots.

[STOP_Ma]

"The main difference I’ve found is that most of them can recognize that Chen Shui-Bian’s shooting incident was staged and that the election was in fact fishy. What I mean is that they just look at the 319 story and they use their common sense and it’s looks really obvious to them that Chen Shui-Bian had every motivation to fake the shooting incdient. Most of them can figure it out, and others seem to be suspicious. "

O.K., let’s use our common sense – shall we?

I want you to stand in a moving vehicle (about 30 km/hr) and have the best sharp shooter you can find fire 2 bullets (using a homemade gun) from 15 feet away. One of the bullets must graze your stomach and the other must penetrate the windshield (as it did with Chen and Chen’s vehicle).

If you do this and manage to survive, send me the video and I will believe your conspiracy theory.

[Huang_Guang_Chen]

Betelnut

"The main difference I’ve found is that most of them can recognize that Chen Shui-Bian’s shooting incident was staged and that the election was in fact fishy.

Wait, wait , wait . . it’s a fucking joke right?

HG

[Betelnut]

@STOP_Ma

"The main difference I’ve found is that most of them can recognize that Chen Shui-Bian’s shooting incident was staged and that the election was in fact fishy. What I mean is that they just look at the 319 story and they use their common sense and it’s looks really obvious to them that Chen Shui-Bian had every motivation to fake the shooting incdient. Most of them can figure it out, and others seem to be suspicious. "

O.K., let’s use our common sense – shall we?

I want you to stand in a moving vehicle (about 30 km/hr) and have the best sharp shooter you can find fire 2 bullets (using a homemade gun) from 15 feet away. One of the bullets must graze your stomach and the other must penetrate the windshield (as it did with Chen and Chen’s vehicle).

If you do this and manage to survive, send me the video and I will believe your conspiracy theory.

On 3.21, Presidential Office spokesperson Huang Zhi-Fang (James) said that any “Karochi” theories of having a self-staged shooting incident were ridiculous because if the President had moved one inch in either direction, the bullet would have killed him possibly. Therefore it is too dangerous to try something like that.

The crowd of reporters and camermen seemed unconvinced of this explanation in logic as far as I could tell from the video.

Months later, after interviewing pro-green people and Western scholars and journalists, I heard this line of reasoning which convinces everyone that it is in fact too dangerous to stage this kind of shooting and therefore all these conspiracy theories have no basis.

Now, almost 2 years later, people who think the shooting was real, are still using this irrefutable arguemnt to shoot down people who insist that the shooting was staged.

After a visit to Kaohsiung last August when I heard this argument, I came to the conclusion that Pan Green supporters simply don’t listen to Pan Blue people a lot of the time, and instead project on to them a line of thinking that essentially labels them as irrational people who can’t understand the ups and downs of democracy.

No Pan Blue person or any person who thinks the shooting was staged thinks that Chen Shui-Bian had his own person shoot him in a moving jeep.

Everyone thinks that his wound was made before hand and/or afterwards. They think that the 2 casings and the 2 bullets in question have nothing to do with the wound on Chen’s belly.

If I can get even 1 person to see this situation a little differently who continues to press the argument that its too dangerous to shoot someone in a moving jeep, then I will be very surprised.

As far as why I believe the shooting was staged, it will take a much longer post, but this post is just to get the point across that nobody believes Chen had his own man shoot him in a moving jeep.

If we’re not careful, Taiwan could move ahead 30 years and the next generation of kids and foreigners who hear the Pan Green line of thinking, will still be using this argument and projecting their own way of thinking on another group of people when in fact nobody is thinking that in the first place.

A book written about the incident claims that Chen’s wound was not made in the jeep, the 319 Truth Committee report claims that the wound was not made by the lead bullet supposedly found in his jacket, no guest or host on any Pan Blue talk show since last year thinks that Chen had himself shot in a moving jeep.

I’m finishing up my documentary on the election its related matters such as the shooting incident. It will have English subtitles, and hopefully it will clear up for the English speaking world, that the suspicions and the issues regarding the shooting incident are in fact reasonable.

Maybe we could have a Forumosa screening in Taipei, and all of you can talk to me in person about this. I won’t hold a grudge for any disparaging comments made on this forum in person though.

[STOP_Ma]

@Betelnut

No Pan Blue person or any person who thinks the shooting was staged thinks that Chen Shui-Bian had his own person shoot him in a moving jeep.

Everyone thinks that his wound was made before hand and/or afterwards. They think that the 2 casings and the 2 bullets in question have nothing to do with the wound on Chen’s belly.

Then how do you explain the bullet hole in the front windshield of the jeep they were in?

[Betelnut]

Good question.

Now we are getting somewhere.

The hole in the windshield is a controversial issue and people have different opinions about it.

Some say that it was shot from the outside. Some say it was hit from inside and the evidence was manipulated before Dr. Henry Lee arrived and emphasized the powder and glass on the dashboard as evidence that the bullet came from the outside. Some say that it was hit by a steel ball or some other projectile from the inside or the outside, and there is not actually any bullet involved in this case.

I won’t write my personal opinion right now because I need to confirm what some experts on bullet holes in windshields have said about the hole. I can tell you right now, that experts from around the world have mentioned privately that the hole in the windshield does not look like a bullet hole. I know that Dr. Henry Lee and his team say it is so there is a difference in opinion regrading this matter.

There is of course much more to the hole that I haven’t mentioned, but the hole in the windshield is a very critical point in this incident.

I have to finish my film and I need to confirm with the foreign expert, so I’ll wait until then to post all the details of what I think of the hole in the windshield.

[STOP_Ma]

@Betelnut

Good question.

Now we are getting somewhere.

The hole in the windshield is a controversial issue and people have different opinions about it.

Some say that it was shot from the outside. Some say it was hit from inside and the evidence was manipulated before Dr. Henry Lee arrived and emphasized the powder and glass on the dashboard as evidence that the bullet came from the outside. Some say that it was hit by a steel ball or some other projectile from the inside or the outside, and there is not actually any bullet involved in this case.

So you’re theory is that Dr. Lee (who is a KMT supporter) and his team of world-renowned forensic experts are incompetent, at best, and complicit in the conspiracy – at worst.

Other than you’ve heard experts say this and you’ve heard experts say that – you’ve given us no credible reason to discount the mountain of evidence that points to the conclusion that this was an assassination attempt. And we haven’t even discussed the fact that they caught the suspect on video at the scene of the crime – afterwhich, they found a suicide and confession note. Not to mention that he supported the KMT.

The onus of proof is on you to discount this evidence and, so far, you have not even come close to doing so.

[Betelnut]

@STOP_Ma

@Betelnut

Good question.

Now we are getting somewhere.

The hole in the windshield is a controversial issue and people have different opinions about it.

Some say that it was shot from the outside. Some say it was hit from inside and the evidence was manipulated before Dr. Henry Lee arrived and emphasized the powder and glass on the dashboard as evidence that the bullet came from the outside. Some say that it was hit by a steel ball or some other projectile from the inside or the outside, and there is not actually any bullet involved in this case.

So you’re theory is that Dr. Lee (who is a KMT supporter) and his team of world-renowned forensic experts are incompetent, at best, and complicit in the conspiracy – at worst.

Other than you’ve heard experts say this and you’ve heard experts say that – you’ve given us no credible reason to discount the mountain of evidence that points to the conclusion that this was an assassination attempt. And we haven’t even discussed the fact that they caught the suspect on video at the scene of the crime – afterwhich, they found a suicide and confession note. Not to mention that he supported the KMT.

The onus of proof is on you to discount this evidence and, so far, you have not even come close to doing so.

I didn’t mean to imply that Dr. Henry Lee’s team was incompetent or that I or anyone knows better. I also know that it is generally know that he is a Pan Blue supporters.

I’m familiar with the evidence that Dr. Henry Lee and the police bureau have cited to claim that this is a legitimate shooting.

I’m also familiar with some of the issues surrounding the so-called suspect who supposedly committed suicide.

Let me finish the film which addresses some of evidence provided by the government and why it doesn’t fully address the situation. After that, I can make some things more clear.

Until then, you could help me out by reading Dr. Henry Lee’s report, some of the evidence provided by the police bureau, the book written about the 319 incident which claims that it was staged, and try to understand more some of the allegations made by the opposition.

That way we would be more on the same page.

[tempogain]

@Betelnut

they use their common sense and it’s looks really obvious to them that Chen Shui-Bian had every motivation to fake the shooting incdient.

there’s definitely a hole in your common sense. it looks really obvious to me that you had every motivation to pull off the Great Train Robbery. expect the police on your doorstep in the morning?

here’s some common sense. we’re talking about the dpp now. you may not have realized this but they have a lot more in common with the keystone kops than the gestapo, hitler comparisons aside.

here’s some more. the hatred that gets spewed at CSB here is constant, and real. short step from there to a random nutcase.

anyway good luck with your documentary. judging from what you have written so far i guess i won’t be holding my breath that there will be any evidence in it. hey let us know if you get some! amazingly enough it seems that there is none. i guess no one over here is looking, maybe you’ll be the one to turn it up. nah why bother? it’s “obvious”.

[cctang]

All of this is just more confirmation how much easier it is to be objective when you’re not involved. Betelnut’s a little ‘nutty’ with this conspiracy theory… and yet I bet if you get a few cocktails in STOP_Ma, he wouldnt’ be able to stop talking about how Bush/Republicans stole the election in '00.

I don’t know the truth of what happened with CSB’s shooting. I do believe he would’ve lost if it wasn’t for the shooting, I’ll tell ya that. And with that in mind, I certainly don’t blame the pan-Blues in pursuing the investigation to the end.

Ultimately, no evidence was found to support their position, and the KMT/PFP rightfully should keep their mouth shut and just fight on the basis of issues that still matter… but really, have you ever seen an investigation into a presidential assassination as weak-limped as this was?

[zhujianlun]

@cctang

…I certainly don’t blame the pan-Blues in pursuing the investigation to the end.

What, including setting up a legislative commission with powers that would have usurped the judiciary, enforcement agencies, the executive and with exercise of incredible punitive powers accountable to no one? This isn’t kindergarten; these people were absolutely hardcore about wrecking as much of the credibility of the system as possible, and this was the most sickening thing about the entire sordid tale. cctang, old chappie, you are a shameless apologist for some of the most appalling and tactical political behavior this place has seen in some time.

@cctang

Ultimately, no evidence was found to support their position, and the KMT/PFP rightfully should keep their mouth shut and just fight on the basis of issues that still matter… but really, have you ever seen an investigation into a presidential assassination as weak-limped as this was?

Oh dear, so you’re fully conversant with the report of the investigation, are you? No evidence, as you say, was presented that would have impressed anyone other than muckrakers and the terminally paranoid. The whole charade was powered along by rumor and insinuation, just like you are dabbling in with your last sentence there, notwithstanding the “shut up” reference.

And to this day, there are people who insist the whole thing was a plot, as if the DPP were competent enough to engineer it. Why not ask golden boy Ma Ying-jeou about it…do you think he would do the honorable thing and say “We should respect the decision of the Council of Grand Justices and put this behind us”? Fat chance: more like “There are still many unanswered questions and I don’t blame people for being suspicious and…” etc etc.

These days I’m beginning to wish Chen did lose the 2004 election, because then Lien and Soong would have been in charge. How tantalizing this possibility seems in retrospect.

[cctang]

And I think you need to lay off the ad hominem attacks. Calling me a “shameless apologist” on this issue, when I haven’t really done much apologizing for the pan-Blues, reflects your own biases more clearly than they do mine.

The use of the word “tactical” is very appropriate here. Without a doubt, I do believe the pan-Blues pursued pushed beyond the limits of constitutional law (or at least the spirit of said laws, if not the word) and established precedence in pursuing a resolution here. Obviously, they thought they were going to break through some wall and find proof of conspiracy. It never materialized, and they ended with egg on their face for the effort.

You call it “appalling” political behavior for Taiwan; here I go being an apologist again, but I just consider it par for the course. And, apparently, the Taiwanese electorate agree with me on this judgement, even if you do not.

[STOP_Ma]

@cctang

All of this is just more confirmation how much easier it is to be objective when you’re not involved. Betelnut’s a little ‘nutty’ with this conspiracy theory… and yet I bet if you get a few cocktails in STOP_Ma, he wouldnt’ be able to stop talking about how Bush/Republicans stole the election in '00.

I don’t know the truth of what happened with CSB’s shooting. I do believe he would’ve lost if it wasn’t for the shooting, I’ll tell ya that. And with that in mind, I certainly don’t blame the pan-Blues in pursuing the investigation to the end.

Ultimately, no evidence was found to support their position, and the KMT/PFP rightfully should keep their mouth shut and just fight on the basis of issues that still matter… but really, have you ever seen an investigation into a presidential assassination as weak-limped as this was?

You’ve got to be kidding me! Are you in bizarro world? The Taiwanese investigators did a stellar job on this case. Did they not find out who the freakin’ shooter was?!

Case closed.

Oh, I know – it was all a giant conspiracy in which all of the evidence just seemed to fit in every instance.

If you want to talk about conspiracies – the KMT or China involvement is more probable than the ridiculous notion that the president shot himself and then committed fraud on a massive scale. I mean – come on guys! This isn’t even worth it’s own thread!

[STOP_Ma]

@zhujianlun

What, including setting up a legislative commission with powers that would have usurped the judiciary, enforcement agencies, the executive and with exercise of incredible punitive powers accountable to no one? This isn’t kindergarten; these people were absolutely hardcore about wrecking as much of the credibility of the system as possible, and this was the most sickening thing about the entire sordid tale. cctang, old chappie, you are a shameless apologist for some of the most appalling and tactical political behavior this place has seen in some time.

That was one of the most egregious and shameful abuses of democracy that I ever witnessed. It was nothing more than a witch-hunt.

You’re absolutely right. It surprised me to no end that the pan-blues didn’t pay a heavier political price for this circus side-show.

[ac_dropout]

@Stop_Ma,

They found a dead guy to pin the alleged shooting on. That’s considered stellar in your book.

And of course pan-Green behavior to stop the 319 Truth Finding Committee was a great demonstration of democracy at work.

Must be kinda of beautiful looking at the world with green colored glasses.

[cctang]

Yea, the lack of meaningful physical evidence, a money trail, other eyewitnesses… they showed us a dead man’s widow speaking of a pre-death confession. The less than convincing resolution still echoes on in Taiwanese society of course, with the pan-Blues issuing a warning (last week) that there were rumors the Greens might arrange a kidnapping of LTH. I laughed at that warning… you just have to. Why’s it funny? Because it’s so ridiculous, and yet, you just can’t eliminate it as a possibility.

I mentioned in a thread last week that Taiwanese politics are proving the reasoning behind 老不读三国.

But really, I don’t even know why I’m involved in this debate. I genuinely don’t care whether CSB was truly shot or not, although I know many Taiwanese (like my fiancee’s entire extended family) still raving about the issue. The point is that he holds the presidency, and we all have to deal with the consequences.

[STOP_Ma]

@ac_dropout

They found a dead guy to pin the alleged shooting on.

@cctang

Yea, the lack of meaningful physical evidence, a money trail, other eyewitnesses…

He was on the freakin’ video at the crime scene for chrissakes!

[ac_dropout]

Him and a thousand other people were in that video.

The key link between him and the video was a jacket that was never recovered.

Area 51 alien recovery has more proof than this dead man.

[cctang]

@STOP_Ma

He was on the freakin’ video at the crime scene for chrissakes!

First of all, there were hundreds of people on the “freakin’ video at the crime scene”. Second of all, the guy that they thought was the shooter on the video looks like hundreds (ok, exaggeration… tens) of Taiwanese that I know personally.

Just compare it to the Kennedy assassination for a sec, @STOP_Ma. What would people think if, instead of catching Lee Harvey Oswald on the day of the very day of shooting, blocks from the scene, minutes after he killed a cop + rifle tracked directly to his home… and all we had was grainy film that showed a skinny balding white guy standing in a window?

Would you expect Americans to be absolutely convinced with that evidence?

[tempogain]

lol if the police told americans yogi bear did it most would believe it, and a minority would be setting up a posse for boo-boo.

regardless if you choose not to believe the police’s version of events then the best you can say is that you have no idea what happened. when you have people coming into this equation with the preconception that it’s “obvious” there was a plot by the dpp it’s hard to take their naysaying too seriously.