Chevron turns 100 sq miles of jungle into toxic-waste dump

[quote]That’s great, quoting from another website when you know jack-all about this subject. That’s exactly the methodology I’m talking about. Parroting someone’s talk, aping someone’s ways. I happen to have talked to one of these kids, read court filings. etc. There were also fundamental problems with the PG&E 's expert report. as in can you say Korean doctor and cloning scenario.

So quit while you’re ahead. What happened to you, so sloppy now.[/quote]

Great. So you can just come right back at me and show me where this chromium 6 does not do as the person I have quoted stated. Should be a piece of cake for you if this is all just a bunch of nonsense, eh?

So, Fred, what’s your take on Corporate Welfare? Or, weren’t you a proponent of the Invisible Hand? Contradiction, no?

[quote]
“End Corporate Welfare!”
US - Cypress Semiconductor Corp. CEO T. J. Rodgers and 78 other Silicon Valley industrialists have called on the White House to “end corporate welfare.” More than 90 percent of US businesses compete successfully without subsidies, Rodgers notes, so why should some of the world’s biggest companies be receiving $75 billion a year in federal handouts? Did McDonald’s really need $14 million tax-dollars to build 16 stores in Brazil? GM, GE, Chevron, IBM, AT&T, United Airlines, Hewlett-Packard, Boeing, Exxon, McDonnell Douglas, Archer Daniels Midland, Tyson Foods, Welch Foods, and Ralston Purina all feed at the public trough. Citizens Against Government Waste, Taxpayers for Common Sense, the Cato Institute, the Progressive Policy Institute, and Ralph Nader’s Public Citizen have called for an independent commission to prune the corporate moneytree. The next step: Abolish the Commerce Department, the Market Access Program and the Overseas Private Investment Corporation. [/quote]

[quote]Quote:
Huge soya farms financed by Cargill, the largest privately owned company in the world, are the rainforest’s new worst enemy . . .

On the ground, what was once a thriving ecosystem supporting at least 300 tree species for every hectare, is now a wasteland. Dead roots and dry grass crunch underfoot and the breeze throws up dust from eroded soil. . .

Brazil has overtaken the United States as the world’s leading exporter of soya. . . . Brazilian soya beans are feeding Europe’s growing hunger for cheap meat substitutes, and have overtaken logging and cattle ranching as the main engine of deforestation. . .

In the past three years, nearly 70,000 square kilometres of the Amazon rainforest have been destroyed. The smoke from burning trees pushed Brazil into the top four of global greenhouse gas producers in 2004. Despite commitments from the government of President Lula da Silva, the destruction of the Amazon rainforest continues. . . there was a 32 per cent decrease in the rate of deforestation last year. . .

news.independent.co.uk/environme … 181617.ece [/quote]

Very clever bit of smearing.

Does Cargill own the farms? Does Cargill farm the soybeans? No and no. What is Cargill responsible for? Building a silo to transport soybeans from farms that it does not own, buying produce from farmers that it does not control, all in accordance with local rules and regulations. It does, however, loan these farmers money. So just how much of the devastation of the Amazon is Cargill responsible for given that it is not the one farming? And it is not the one responsible for dealing with any illegal farming? Why doesn’t the Brazilian government enforce its own rules? Why did the Brazilian government allow Cargill to build this site to transport soybeans? Why does the Brazilian government not stop Cargill from providing loans? How important are those loans to these farms? Would they not exist without these loans? Apparently so, since they were already engaging in extensive farming of soy beans which is precisely why Cargill decided to build the silo near this area? Right?

And if you are so interested in the exacerbation of deforestation why are you worried that there has been a 32 percent DECREASE in the rate of deforestation?

As to global warming. You have suggested that by buying soybeans from these farmers that Cargill is responsible for the greenhouse gas emissions but are these not caused by the farmers themselves engaging in slash burn tactics? and given that you are so critical of this practice would you also be critical of any environmental groups who have caused similar destruction? advocating policies that lead to vast increases in the rates of greenhouse gas emissions? I ask because…

[quote]PALM OIL: PANACEA OR ENVIRONMENTAL NIGHTMARE
Compiled by Ruth Rosenhek from Wetlands International and various other sources

Just a few years ago, politicians and environmental groups in the Netherlands were thrilled by the early and rapid adoption of “sustainable energy” achieved in part by coaxing electrical plants to use biofuel, in particular, palm oil from Southeast Asia.

Spurred by government subsidies, energy companies became so enthusiastic that they designed generators that ran exclusively on the oil, which in theory would be cleaner than fossil fuels like coal because it is derived from plants. But last year, when scientists studied practices at palm plantations in Indonesia and Malaysia, this green fairy tale began to look more like an environmental nightmare.

The drive for “green energy” in the developed world is having the perverse effect of encouraging the destruction of precious tropical rainforests. Oil palm plantations destroy bio-diversity and are associated with human rights violations and worker exploitation. Millions of hectares of rainforest in Borneo, Sumatra and Malaysia have been cleared to accommodate oil palm plantations. Companies are now turning to peat swamp forests, the preferred home of the orangutan, one of man’s closest relatives.

Peatlands store more carbon than any other terrestrial ecosystem. Peatlands cover over 400 million hectares of land, which is only about 3% of the global surface of land and fresh water. However, they store huge quantities of organic material, equivalent to approximately 2,000,000 million tonne CO2; comparable with 100 years of the current emissions of fossil fuels. The lowlands of humid tropical forests in Asia areas are endowed with extensive peatlands; in these areas the peat soils store 30 times more carbon comparable than stored above ground in normal rainforests.

Millions of hectares of peatland rainforests are being logged and drained, particularly for oil palm and pulpwood plantations. The situation is exacerbated by annual peat fires covering millions of hectares. This leads to huge emissions of carbon dioxide fuelling the greenhouse effect. It is estimated that the great forest fires in Indonesia of 1997-1998 resulted in carbon emissions equivalent to 30-40 percent of all emissions from burning fossil fuels in the world that year. Indonesia is now considered one of the major carbon polluters on the planet.

New alarming figures about Indonesia Wetlands International and Delft Hydraulics have calculated the emissions from peatland areas in Indonesia on the basis of soil and land-use data, including comparison of comprehensive field data on peat depth and carbon contents. This recent study shows that over the last years, there has been an average annual emission from peatlands of an alarming 2000 Million tonnes CO2 including 600 Mt from decomposition and 1400 Mt from fires. This is more than the CO2 emissions from India or Russia and almost three times the German emissions on an annual basis.

Unrestrained biofuel expansion will accelerate, not slow down climate change, as rainforests and peatlands are converted to energy crop monocultures and release their carbon in the process. Recently a new biodiesel plant has opened in Darwin. Most of the palm oil it will use for its biodiesel is being imported from SE Asia. More than 26% of all Indonesian oil palm concessions are on peatlands, and similar figures apply to Malaysia. It is estimated that production of one tonne of palm oil will result in an average emission of 20 tonnes of CO2 from peat decomposition alone - not taking into account the emissions from fire and other CO2 emissions during the production cycle.

The rampant deforestation associated with the spread of oil palm plantations has had a devastating effect on animal species. The orangutan, Sumatran tiger, Sumatran rhino, Asian elephant and numerous other incredible species are threatened with functional extinction in the wild within the next two years if nothing is done to curb destruction of the rainforest.

the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil (RSPO) promises to “promote the growth and use of sustainable palm”. Unfortunately, the RSPO is a relatively new and voluntary organisation and has yet to implement the criteria by which oil palm plantations will be deemed sustainable. Even more serious, the RSPO has not determined how the criteria will be enforced or monitored.

The Kyoto protocol, allows western countries to reach their emission targets by helping to reduce the emissions in the third world countries (Clean Development Mechanism). However, the Protocol excludes the emissions from soil and (degraded) vegetation and limits itself to reducing emissions from industry, housing, traffic and agriculture. As a result there is little or no attention for peatland degradation, a huge cause of global warming. [/quote]

rainforestinfo.org.au/climat … lm_oil.htm

So would you like to hold the environmentalists to the same standards of conduct that are holding Cargill? I mean if Cargill is responsible for all of these terrible things because it buys soy beans from these farmers, are not these environmentalists also responsible for designing policies and incentives that promote palm oil and aren’t those who buy this palm oil then equally culpable for any destruction caused? Just curious to see how you will “balance” these moral considerations…

JB:

I will accept your switch to corporate welfare as a tacit admission that you are either unwilling or unable to pursue a further discussion of the environmental “degradation” in Ecuador supposedly caused by Texaco.

I will assume also that you are unwilling or unable to pursue a further discussion regarding the health effects of chromium 6.

Finally, let’s examine…

[quote]So, Fred, what’s your take on Corporate Welfare? Or, weren’t you a proponent of the Invisible Hand? Contradiction, no?
Quote:

“End Corporate Welfare!”
US - Cypress Semiconductor Corp. CEO T. J. Rodgers and 78 other Silicon Valley industrialists have called on the White House to “end corporate welfare.” More than 90 percent of US businesses compete successfully without subsidies, Rodgers notes, so why should some of the world’s biggest companies be receiving $75 billion a year in federal handouts? Did McDonald’s really need $14 million tax-dollars to build 16 stores in Brazil? GM, GE, Chevron, IBM, AT&T, United Airlines, Hewlett-Packard, Boeing, Exxon, McDonnell Douglas, Archer Daniels Midland, Tyson Foods, Welch Foods, and Ralston Purina all feed at the public trough. Citizens Against Government Waste, Taxpayers for Common Sense, the Cato Institute, the Progressive Policy Institute, and Ralph Nader’s Public Citizen have called for an independent commission to prune the corporate moneytree. The next step: Abolish the Commerce Department, the Market Access Program and the Overseas Private Investment Corporation. [/quote]

I have always wanted to abolish these subsidies and to get rid of many government agencies not just the Dept of Commerce. Why have a Dept of Agriculture? To test the food supply? we need a whole department? and the Dept of Labor? for what? Dept of Transportation? as if states cannot handle these matters? and the Dept of Health and Human Services because states cannot organize and implement their own policies?

I am for getting rid of all of these but why are we talking about this now? Why aren’t you on the attack about multinationals engaged in environmentally perfidious behavior at home and abroad? End agricultural subsidies. End corporate welfare. End these many departments that have grown into bureaucratic behemoths. I won’t defend one of them. Wanna privatize the postal service while we are at it too? Strange that you would be against corporate welfare and then be anti privatization for these types of things. Care to explain?

No, Chromium 6 is very bad. If you have no problem with it, I will bring you a glass of water with 100 ppm Chromium 6. Show me where your money is at.

The stuff I know about Chromium 6, I could talk to you in private, but unless you want to indemnify me without limitation, I’m not gonna write about it in detail.

But go ahead, prove me wrong. Drink the Chromium 6.

Fred, forget about the swapping of links, just answer a few questions please:

  1. Isn’t it true that earning profits is the top objective for most multinational companies?

  2. Isn’t it true that one of the key means of increasing profits for a company that sells products or natural resources is to find ever cheaper ways to manufacture the products or extract the resources?

  3. Isn’t it true that compliance with health and safety laws or standards is more likely to increase rather than decrease the cost of manufacturing, at least from a short-term perspective?

  4. Isn’t it true that compliance with environmental laws or standards is more likely to increase the cost of extracting resources from the environment, at least from a short-term perspective?

  5. Therefore, isn’t it true that multinational companies are likely to try to minimize compliance with health, safey and environmental laws and standards that may increase production costs, unless they expect such conduct to become publicly known and to lead to punitive actions by consumers, industry groups or government bodies that might harm their profits?

  6. Or did I miss something and most multinationals are actually warm and fuzzy organizations more concerned with world peace, sustainability and multi-cultural bliss than they are with their financial bottom line?

Great. Let me save this for a rainy day.

[quote]No, Chromium 6 is very bad. If you have no problem with it, I will bring you a glass of water with 100 ppm Chromium 6. Show me where your money is at.

The stuff I know about Chromium 6, I could talk to you in private, but unless you want to indemnify me without limitation, I’m not gonna write about it in detail.

But go ahead, prove me wrong. Drink the Chromium 6.[/quote]

Why cannot you just prove the person wrong. Is he wrong when he asserts that it would have to be inhaled to cause the two types of cancer that he is referring to? Is he right to assert that at the levels found in CA that this would not cause the kinds of health problems being discussed?

haha. Yeah. I thought that might get your attention. So let’s switch to an area where you think you can win this time rather than address the points that I raised?

Not necessarily these days. I think that is a mistake. All or certainly the vast majority of companies should have as their primary goal making money.

Yes. Ideally that should be the case. Politics however gets involved with negative results.

It can but only if you narrowly look at these variables. There may be reasons why companies would want to keep their employees as safe and healthy as possible. You seem to be suggesting that these are two mutually incompatible goals. I disagree. I think this is a mindset issue and your view is that management will always be in conflict with labor.

Yes, short term but then I disagree that companies should have short-term focuses. You seem to think that pollution is desirable to companies because cleaning it up has costs. To me, pollution and waste indicate less than ideal efficiency and should be examined. All waste is bad for a company and its bottom line and in the long term I think that this can trump those other concerns. IF this were all about environmental and labor costs why then choose to manufacture in the developed world at all, if as you say these short term factors are the primary drivers of companies and are therefore not compatible with either health-safety and environmental issues?

I disagree that companies clean up and behave themselves only because they are afraid to get caught. I would suggest to you that you have neither worked for a manufacturing company nor have any true understanding of how the vast majority operate.

No, but your post speaks volumes to me because it shows very clearly that you have nary a clue about industry or mining. I find most Western companies to be exemplary in their behavior and not just because they fear locustlike lawyers. You seem to think that companies are only interested in making money narrowly. But if you have healthy, happy workers, you have a better company. IF you have a healthy community, you will attract better, more talented, happier, healthier workers which will ultimately deliver more to you and your company and thus increase your bottom line. This thinking of yours is so foreign to me that I cannot imagine that you have ever actually worked with anyone at a manufacturing company EVER before. I happen to know as a native Minnesotan the huge pride that companies and their workers took in devising new solutions to achieve greater productivity and this led to a cleaner, better, less wasteful environment. This was true at General Mills, Pillsbury, Cargill, 3M and others, all of which as you know are or were headquartered in Minnesota. These companies have been at the forefront of environmental, health and safety and for you to suggest otherwise not only does them a great disservice but is patently dishonest and borderline if not completely libelous. IF you really feel that these companies are the awful entities that you think that they are, put your money where your mouth is and sue them directly. OR write articles and send them to publications for public offering to see whether your words will in fact stand or whether you will be challenged. Naturally, I am most eager to see any other facts that you have because I know far better.

And do not compare corporate norms of 100 years ago with 50 years ago or 20 years ago or even yesterday. Constant innovation and improvement take place. Mistakes are made. Companies are not perfect but those who really do have the awful records on the environment and with regard to employee relations go out of business and they do so very quickly. I think that it is no surprise that some of the most mismanaged of American companies (automobiles) are also the least profitable. What do you think?

:blush: My bad… I forgot to include the link. Very sorry…

Jungle Law: Politics and Power

Actually, Fred, I don’t have a big beef with Corporate America per se (although I do have a beef with corporate welfare, and the fact that these non-democratic organizations wield such disproportionate political power - Rupert Murdoch’s media juggernaught being a particularly creepy example.) I am, however, an un-abashed critic of the oil industry, as you probably remember from this thread:

Republicans investigate oil company for selling oil too cheaply

We need oil. Western oil companies are very responsible when it comes to protecting the environment. Want to see the Russian version? Chinese?

I will take this post as a sign that perhaps you now realize that there is more to the Ecuador matter than the article you posted suggested. IF and WHEN such multinationals overstep, they should be shamed. But for these sites to constantly smear them is not fair and it is slanderous, malicious and libelous. It should be prosecuted as such.

Well, I would agree that there is more to the matter than the title of the thread I created suggested. As for the article, it’s 11 pages long and covers a lot of ground. Did you actually read it?

Personally, I am inclined to give the plaintiffs the benefit of the doubt, when

Chevron Lobbies White House to Pressure Ecuador to Stop $12 Billion Amazon Pollution Lawsuit

Nice. This speaks reams about the righteousness of Chevron’s case against the tiny tribes it’s being persecuted by in mighty Ecuador.