Children of Enlightenment

[quote=“headhonchoII”][quote=“crystaleye”][quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]What the hell does “evolutionary renaissance” even mean, and why capitalise it?

Also, you are aware that Japan is screwed economically, right? It’s demographics are also insane. That place is going to collapse under the weight of all those oldies getting socialised medicine, and all those weirdo urban hipsters who aren’t having children because that’s what their square parents did. Japan is not moving in the right direction. It’s driving off a cliff.

That’s not to say the Chinese speaking world is where it’s at either, merely to say that Japan is definitely not where it’s at.[/quote]

Why do we have to measure the worth of a country by its economics? or its demographics? Are you saying the citizens of any particular country can only be happy if that country has one of the highest GDP in the world? or if that country is constantly producing new babies?[/quote]

Crystaleye has a point again here, namely that economics or demographics don’t mean much for an individual. It’s where you sit on the totem pole that counts.[/quote]

Wait, what?? You do realize that if the economic system collapses people starve, right? As an individual myself, I’m against starving to death. I daresay it might impact my happiness.

I suppose I am the only one in thinking that Asian societies that have a lot of filial piety for their parents is a good thing…?

It’s not a bad thing but there is a huge difference between filial piety and being subservient to the point that the parents are controlling their children’s lives (who they should marry, how many kids they should have, etc).

It’s not a bad thing but there is a huge difference between filial piety and being subservient to the point that the parents are controlling their children’s lives (who they should marry, how many kids they should have, etc).[/quote]

Yeah, I completely agree. Some cases get way too out of hand. But for the majority of people I meet it is fairly normal, not too extreme.

While I don’t like how filial piety works out in some cases I still feel that it’s better than the situation we have in many western countries now. Everyone seems to demand respect for themselves while showing no respect toward anyone else. Perhaps some kind of a balance between the two would be best.

[quote=“skoster”][quote=“headhonchoII”][quote=“crystaleye”][quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]What the hell does “evolutionary renaissance” even mean, and why capitalise it?

Also, you are aware that Japan is screwed economically, right? It’s demographics are also insane. That place is going to collapse under the weight of all those oldies getting socialised medicine, and all those weirdo urban hipsters who aren’t having children because that’s what their square parents did. Japan is not moving in the right direction. It’s driving off a cliff.

That’s not to say the Chinese speaking world is where it’s at either, merely to say that Japan is definitely not where it’s at.[/quote]

Why do we have to measure the worth of a country by its economics? or its demographics? Are you saying the citizens of any particular country can only be happy if that country has one of the highest GDP in the world? or if that country is constantly producing new babies?[/quote]

Crystaleye has a point again here, namely that economics or demographics don’t mean much for an individual. It’s where you sit on the totem pole that counts.[/quote]

Wait, what?? You do realize that if the economic system collapses people starve, right? As an individual myself, I’m against starving to death. I daresay it might impact my happiness.[/quote]

Not in a globalized world, people have freedom of movement if they have money. Note the huge numbers of Chinese and Asian business people and officials with second homes in the West , many of them have transferred the majority of their wealth overseas.

Read about Bo Xi Lai and his family to get an idea.

This is why you have to look at the individual picture aswell as the big pictue. GIT also claimed that Japan is doomed because of it’s aging population but that doesn’t really mean anything. Obviously some sectors of society will struggle, and others will prosper.

While I don’t like how filial piety works out in some cases I still feel that it’s better than the situation we have in many western countries now. Everyone seems to demand respect for themselves while showing no respect toward anyone else. Perhaps some kind of a balance between the two would be best.[/quote]

Oh come on are you saying because we are Westerners we don’t care for our families , what tosh. Sure we don’t have to follow what our parents say always but I don’t think westerners care less for their parents in general.

While I don’t like how filial piety works out in some cases I still feel that it’s better than the situation we have in many western countries now. Everyone seems to demand respect for themselves while showing no respect toward anyone else. Perhaps some kind of a balance between the two would be best.[/quote]

Oh come on are you saying because we are Westerners we don’t care for our families , what tosh. Sure we don’t have to follow what our parents say always but I don’t think westerners care less for their parents in general.[/quote]

I think to an extent the topic becomes more confusing because we are foreigners from several nations while Taiwanese parents are only from Taiwan.

Personal experience sometimes can be exaggerated and not a very effective form of evidence in many cases, but growing up in the United States I saw far too many cases of parents that had absolutely no control over their children. I understand too much control of children is not ideal either, but I would still rather pick the latter than the former any day. If necessary I can provide the statistics of divorce rates in a handful of western countries but for now I will make the claim that high divorce rates in the United States lead to less parental control of people’s own children.

I agree with Tomthorne’s sentiment that having a balance of both would be the best. For western countries I really believe that it really depends on which country, which state/city, and what type of parents.

It’s not a bad thing but there is a huge difference between filial piety and being subservient to the point that the parents are controlling their children’s lives (who they should marry, how many kids they should have, etc).[/quote]

QFT.

I had the experience of dating someone from Taiwan that when it was time to meet the mother (the mother that the daughter kept the dating secret from), the mother didn’t like her daughter dating a foreigner and it was off.

Next thing I knew, 6 months later, she was married to a man almost twice her age to a man that knew the family for a long time.

People like this have no sense of self worth, only ready to bow down to whomever is higher than them, whether in relationships, at the workplace, and with their family. Filial Piety to an extreme is unhealthy and I think crystaleye has some good points. I’m all for respect for family, but not to the point where they can take over your life, which seems to be a societal norm in Taiwan.

While I don’t like how filial piety works out in some cases I still feel that it’s better than the situation we have in many western countries now. Everyone seems to demand respect for themselves while showing no respect toward anyone else. Perhaps some kind of a balance between the two would be best.[/quote]

Oh come on are you saying because we are Westerners we don’t care for our families , what tosh. Sure we don’t have to follow what our parents say always but I don’t think westerners care less for their parents in general.[/quote]

No, I didn’t mean that at all. I was referring to respect toward other people in general.

It’s not a bad thing but there is a huge difference between filial piety and being subservient to the point that the parents are controlling their children’s lives (who they should marry, how many kids they should have, etc).[/quote]

QFT.

I had the experience of dating someone from Taiwan that when it was time to meet the mother (the mother that the daughter kept the dating secret from), the mother didn’t like her daughter dating a foreigner and it was off.

Next thing I knew, 6 months later, she was married to a man almost twice her age to a man that knew the family for a long time.

People like this have no sense of self worth, only ready to bow down to whomever is higher than them, whether in relationships, at the workplace, and with their family. Filial Piety to an extreme is unhealthy and I think crystaleye has some good points. I’m all for respect for family, but not to the point where they can take over your life, which seems to be a societal norm in Taiwan.[/quote]

if your woman friend had to listen to her family to that extent, then i am pretty sure you are much better off not wasting any more time with such an insecure woman…

i once dated a fairly good-looking Shanghainese girl in sydney… rating of 8/9 maybe and skin as white as snow… brought her to a upper-class sushi restaurant in the city on the first date and guess what she told me? on our bloody first date?..

“i only marry men who earn a certain level of income and if you don’t earn that much, forget about dating me in the future cos i don’t wanna waste my time as my mother would never allow me to marry a poor man…”

HA! Mind you, this bloody “listen to mommy and daddy” attitude extends to all chinese everywhere and not just to the mainlanders… plenty of such subservient behavior among the taiwanese as well… just do a search in the dating and relationships folder…

forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi … 2&t=109135

this is why i think i would never even give the time of the day to a chinese woman from now on… and i include taiwan and hk in this broad category of “chinese women” cos they are from the same “mommy-and-daddy’s girls” breed…

Respect for one’s parents is very different from the asian definition of “filial piety”…

asian parents’ definition of “filial piety” is …

“dear son/daughter, if you don’t listen to what i say, this means you are not being filial to me…”

you know even the Buddha himself dare not command such blind obedience from his followers… The Buddha himself said… “Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.”

and since most asian parents are hardly as wise or as moral as the Buddha, what right do asian parents or any parents for that matter, regardless of race of nationality, what right do parents have to demand such blind obedience from their children?

especially in matters as significant as marriages and love?

While I don’t like how filial piety works out in some cases I still feel that it’s better than the situation we have in many western countries now. Everyone seems to demand respect for themselves while showing no respect toward anyone else. Perhaps some kind of a balance between the two would be best.[/quote]

Oh come on are you saying because we are Westerners we don’t care for our families , what tosh. Sure we don’t have to follow what our parents say always but I don’t think westerners care less for their parents in general.[/quote]

I think to an extent the topic becomes more confusing because we are foreigners from several nations while Taiwanese parents are only from Taiwan.

Personal experience sometimes can be exaggerated and not a very effective form of evidence in many cases, but growing up in the United States I saw far too many cases of parents that had absolutely no control over their children. I understand too much control of children is not ideal either, but I would still rather pick the latter than the former any day. If necessary I can provide the statistics of divorce rates in a handful of western countries but for now I will make the claim that high divorce rates in the United States lead to less parental control of people’s own children.

I agree with Tomthorne’s sentiment that having a balance of both would be the best. For western countries I really believe that it really depends on which country, which state/city, and what type of parents.[/quote]

You know there are a lot of parents in the west who are idiots as well. There are a lot of people in the West who are just as unqualified to be parents as there are in the East.

Just check out Eva Mendes’ latest movie Girl in Progress where the daughter in that movie is obviously much wiser and more intelligent than the mother herself.

But you are missing the main point.

Which is the amount of interference which chinese/taiwanese/hkese people allow their parents to have in their own lives.

As far as I am concerned, once a kid grow up to become an adult 21 years of age, if that 21-year-old adult still lacks the mental and intellectual faculties to think for himself/herself, to question things and life in general,

if that 21-year-old adult lacks the willpower to tell his or her parents to fcuk off if they dare judge him or her… such immature adults should be locked up in a mental asylum immediately because they have this mental illness called “non-critical thinking”… a trait which is extremely dangerous in today’s society…

and just to balance things out, let me add that it is the lack of critical thinking in a lot of Midwest young american males which lead to the invasion of Iraq… lots of young american males from the Midwest saw Osama’s face and the twin towers crumbling on TV… and they think “i wanna join the army and kill them iraqis!” LOL…

[quote=“PigBloodCake”][quote=“sandman”][quote=“crystaleye”]
I say again … everybody is responsible for his or her own life and no parent, government, teacher or boss should dictate to any single individual how he or she should live out his or her own life…[/quote]
I for one shall follow your orders. Maybe it will make me a better parent.[/quote]

And, for starters, I shall follow crystaleye’s mantra by not reprimanding my children for doing 420 out in the public. :bow:[/quote]

If you are still reprimanding your children after they become legal adults of 18 years and older, I would say that you are a miserable failure as a parent.

I am a designer btw or was a designer before I became a reclusive refugee.

The most fundamental trait of being a successful designer is not to learn how to draw. Any tom, dick, harry and sally can draw once they put in enough practice.

No the most fundamental trait of being a successful designer is to challenge and destroy the old way of thought and bring in new ways of thinking so that new ideas new products can be brought into this world.

Every successful designer has to have the will, courage, intelligence and wisdom to defy and brush off his own biological parents if the situation demands it to be so. Basically tell his or her own parents to “fcuk off” in other words if the parents cross over the line.

However the Chinese/Taiwanese/Hkese are not known for telling their parents to “fcuk off” and this is why I am afraid the China/Taiwan/HK would not have the bollocks to rule the world for many years to come.

China (& Taiwan) wants to influence the world like how the Japanese are dominating the world with their culture. Not a chance in hell I would say not as long as Chinese/Taiwanese/HKese adults continue to be as subservient to their elders as before.

HH2: Having an ageing society is a real problem for the simple reason that the ratio between people paying tax in and those costing society through social services will become problematic. You can’t debate this. It’s simple mathematics. The solutions then become some variation or combination of the following:

  1. Increase immigration (though those people become old too, and the country may not be able to support so many people due to the environment or infrastructure, which would lead to people’s standard of living declining);
  2. Tax people more (which has a finite point and also impacts people’s standard of living);
  3. Introduce a compulsory retirement scheme (which is a form of 2 and 4 put together in a sense);
  4. Cut social services (which also impacts people’s standard of living).
  5. Increase the retirement age/age at which benefits can be obtained (which is a subset of point 4).
  6. Increase the national debt (this eventually reaches a crisis point, and then it really hits the fan).

Anyway, regarding this whole filial piety thing, I must have got lucky (or picked the right woman). My wife is respectful of her family, but her parents don’t control her (or her three siblings).

For someone talking about enlightenment, you seem pretty angry at the world crystaleye.

[quote=“crystaleye”]“One thing which always irks me about the Chinese/Taiwanese/HKese”

“An example of bloody idiotic Chinese/Taiwanese/HKese youths’ blind obedience to their parents is”

“Cases like this are dime a dozen in the chinese/taiwanese/hkese culture, i kid you not.”

“There are a lot of delusional chinese men”

“Anyone who blindly obey their parents like the Chinese lack the courage or intelligence to think for oneself.”

“i think i would never even give the time of the day to a chinese woman from now on”

“You know there are a lot of parents in the west who are idiots as well.”

“if that 21-year-old adult lacks the willpower to tell his or her parents to fcuk off if they dare judge him or her… such immature adults should be locked up in a mental asylum immediately because they have this mental illness called “non-critical thinking”…”

“If you are still reprimanding your children after they become legal adults of 18 years and older, I would say that you are a miserable failure as a parent.”[/quote]

While I don’t like how filial piety works out in some cases I still feel that it’s better than the situation we have in many western countries now. Everyone seems to demand respect for themselves while showing no respect toward anyone else. Perhaps some kind of a balance between the two would be best.[/quote]

Oh come on are you saying because we are Westerners we don’t care for our families , what tosh. Sure we don’t have to follow what our parents say always but I don’t think westerners care less for their parents in general.[/quote]

I don’t think young people here in Taiwan do respect their parents more than other kids in the West - they may say so and might think they do though. Respect & being obedient as default is not the same.

I know from personal experience here in Taiwan from people I am/was very close with, like my wife, my former girl friends and some good Taiwanese friends (3 I can think of right now - all of them I still know today) that their relationship with their parents is much more guided by “no choices”, by “no option”, by “no communication”, by “it is the way it is” - and not by respect. If love is a sweat suit, Chinese type filial piety is a straitjacket and smells very outdated and undemocratic.
If we grew up with our parent’s love and sacrifice we should respect them, take care of them and love them. But it must be our choice. To have all this as a result of a brainwashing cultural default creates misery, pain and confusion.

[quote=“crystaleye”][quote=“PigBloodCake”][quote=“sandman”][quote=“crystaleye”]
I say again … everybody is responsible for his or her own life and no parent, government, teacher or boss should dictate to any single individual how he or she should live out his or her own life…[/quote]
I for one shall follow your orders. Maybe it will make me a better parent.[/quote]

And, for starters, I shall follow crystaleye’s mantra by not reprimanding my children for doing 420 out in the public. :bow:[/quote]

If you are still reprimanding your children after they become legal adults of 18 years and older, I would say that you are a miserable failure as a parent.[/quote]

Nah, after 18, I’d ask them for a hit as well :wink:

It’s not a bad thing but there is a huge difference between filial piety and being subservient to the point that the parents are controlling their children’s lives (who they should marry, how many kids they should have, etc).[/quote]

QFT.

I had the experience of dating someone from Taiwan that when it was time to meet the mother (the mother that the daughter kept the dating secret from), the mother didn’t like her daughter dating a foreigner and it was off.

Next thing I knew, 6 months later, she was married to a man almost twice her age to a man that knew the family for a long time.

People like this have no sense of self worth, only ready to bow down to whomever is higher than them, whether in relationships, at the workplace, and with their family. Filial Piety to an extreme is unhealthy and I think crystaleye has some good points. I’m all for respect for family, but not to the point where they can take over your life, which seems to be a societal norm in Taiwan.[/quote]

if your woman friend had to listen to her family to that extent, then I am pretty sure you are much better off not wasting any more time with such an insecure woman…

i once dated a fairly good-looking Shanghainese girl in sydney… rating of 8/9 maybe and skin as white as snow… brought her to a upper-class sushi restaurant in the city on the first date and guess what she told me? on our bloody first date?..

“i only marry men who earn a certain level of income and if you don’t earn that much, forget about dating me in the future cos I don’t wanna waste my time as my mother would never allow me to marry a poor man…”

HA! Mind you, this bloody “listen to mommy and daddy” attitude extends to all chinese everywhere and not just to the mainlanders… plenty of such subservient behavior among the taiwanese as well… just do a search in the dating and relationships folder…

forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi … 2&t=109135

this is why I think I would never even give the time of the day to a chinese woman from now on… and i include taiwan and hk in this broad category of “chinese women” cos they are from the same “mommy-and-daddy’s girls” breed…[/quote]

Yes, these are extreme examples, I have felt them and have complained about them before but I don’t feel they are in anyway the norm. I think the vast majority of people I meet have a good respect for their parents and their parents are not too demanding. Perhaps I see them talking on the phone quite often with their parents, but for the most part I see the children making the majority of their own decisions.

I do agree that Asian parents tend to take care of their children until higher ages (22 to 23), but I don’t see this as a negative. People at this age still need a lot of guidance. Hell, I need a lot of guidance.