China is picking quarrels and provoking trouble (November 2021 and beyond)

Maybe this basic point should be made clear to them. Otherwise what exactly is their claim to Taiwan based on?

The Qing Empire ruled it (well most of it). Therefore it belongs to us.

Guy

Ok fly over there and make your point in Beijing.

Historical arguments are pointless. They believe they are the successors to the ROC and the ROC and all its territory.

Whatever theory or logic or treaty or whatever you would like to use to dispute that its pointless, because there will be no tribunal. And even if there was, they would ignore it.

I think China’s aims on Taiwan are much more to do with geopolitics and Taiwan’s geographical position than history or reuniting the motherland. Maybe 20 years ago was different, but not now

I agree with that.

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So what then is the basis of Beijing’s loud and incessant claim if it’s not “historical”?

Guy

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I already said ‘Taiwan is part of China’s territory’. It was taken away through unfair treaties and needs to be returned. Beijing’s claim to Taiwan goes back to the Han dynasty, so your hypothetical ‘get out of jail free card’ is invalid anyway.

Taiwan is an independent country, because its an independent country. Its an independent country because the people here dont want to be ruled by Beijing. Everything else is just noise.

What?!?

Finally I can comprehend what you are saying. :slightly_smiling_face:

Guy

台灣自古是中國不可分割部分 or something to that extent. Taiwan has been part of China since Ancient times. Thats what kids learn in schools. The reasoning, you can go and find yourself.

They’re OK with lying?

But enough! The key point is to make sure those guys never take control of our lives here—full stop.

Guy

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:no_mouth:

https://baike.baidu.com/item/台湾/122340?fr=aladdin

There you go. Northern Song(1120), Fujian had administration over Taiwan and Diaoyutai .

As I said, I find historical arguments pointless.

Yeah and I was the King of France.

Nice chatting with you OO. Enjoy your day!

Guy

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Which is historical, and a false one at that.

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Both are historically false. Fujian people prior to 1603, (mid Ming dynasty) had no idea Taiwan existed, as recorded by Fujian native scholar and general Chen Ti. Until the Dutch’s arrival, the Ming government didn’t consider Taiwan apart of China, which is why they suggest the Dutch to leave Penghu, which was considered Ming territory, and go to Taiwan instead. A position that Qing emperors also insisted.

雍正元年,憲皇帝即位,詔曰:「台灣自古不屬中國,我皇考神武遠屆,拓入版圖。

Sure, Chinese history is like that. Whoever gets control of the country gets to rewrite history. Again I think its pointless masturbation at best, there isnt going to an international tribunal.

History:

You take the land from someone else. It’s yours. Then other people come. It’s theirs.

No one is entitled to nothing. Military might decides.

Everything else is wishful thinking.

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Yeah I mean I dont see the point of debating Beijing’s logic, its quite clear. They think they have a historical claim and they are going to back it up by having the bigger fists. The second part justifies the first.

While that has been true for the most part of the human history, at various points in history, regional order has been established for countries to cooperate and prosper together under a longer stretch of relative peace. Since WW2, this is been one of those times, and the order is built not just on the military might of the US, but also an international consensus that cooperating and mutual prosperity is better than armed conflict. Conflict and resolution are preferred to be resolved through laws, treaties, and international organizations such as the UN.

China is definitely the biggest benefactor of this current relative peaceful era.

However, now that it has grown to be the world’s second largest economy, and Xi is leaning hard into becoming a dictator and realizing China’s imperial ambitions, they’d love nothing more to hear people strengthening their might is right position. They’d love nothing more than to disable the current world order, so they can build one based on the CCP doing whatever it wants.

Arguing that treaties and promises by the UN post WW2 means nothing at all because in the end those with the bigger guns win, saying real history doesn’t matter, yet validating China’s distortion of history to claim Taiwan, those are exactly what China wants the world to believe.

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I don’t disagree with that.

But whatever the UN or the international community does is in the end based on military might.

I don’t know, I feel your view is often too one-sided for my taste. I like to try and see it from above without being too emotionally involved in this, as hard as it is sitting right here on the rock.

China can claim whatever they want, so can Taiwan. Like two leashed dogs barking at each other. Once unleashed, all that barking won’t matter anymore.

Of course, their war with Vietnam teaches Vietnam, those watching on the sideline and especially themselves that China was incredibly weak by the 1980s. That was a major reason that prompted Deng to open up.

China and the US are the leashed dogs, Taiwan is just a chew toy in the middle.

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