The main reason china opened up was that it was broke, not because of any will to actually liberalise. The party always saw it as a temporary measure.
It’s just that the rest of the world fooled itself or was blinded by opportunity
I think I offered international treaties, UN charter, hisotircal documents as evidence to back up my point. You came back at me with might is right. If that’s me being one sided and not open minded, then there’s little else I can do. Like I said, there’s very little discussion to be had after the “might is right” argument.
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No arguments there. The question now is since most major nations have just realized what a mistake that was in the past decade, what do they plan to do about it.
The places we need to cooperate with China, like Climate Change, we will still need to cooperate or find ways to work together. And we shouldnt give up trying to bring them more into the fold.
At the other side we have to be realistic about what the party is and what they want. Also how wealthy and strong and to be honest, effective the Chinese state is now. Regime change or collapse are a pipe-dream, not going to happen. On the contrary, China will likely slow down but continue to get wealthier and more competitive.
We (free world/rules based order) need to build alliances to to either compete with China or counter them. These can be militarily, economics, science or international programs. For example the BRI, the reason that China has so much success with this, is that there arent really any other players in the game for infrastructure lending at this scale.
Things like the AUKUS are good. Actual solid alliances with goals. The TPP would have been good, but Trump kinda fucked it.
We need to strengthen the international organizations and strengthen our democracies. Realize we are in a competition which is at some part driven by values. The US needs to lead, but it cant be the hegemonic post-war order, alliances need to be built on real partnership. A lot of Western democracies need to get their own house in order if going to preach democracy and values.
In terms of the long war, round one was shit show. The West was asleep at the wheel. China won and is winning. To turn things around need to be honest with ourselves and where we have failed.
There is a lot of discussion you can have when premising that “might is right” reflects reality. For example how might can be accumulated with the help of treaties and alliances etc.
No one is stopping the US from entering other countries militarily. They have the might, so they do it. You could argue that, if China should become as mighty as the US, they have the same right as the US to invade other countries, let’s say in the same way the US invaded Irak.
How do you propose to accomplish that with a might is right model?
If the entire world accepts that the current world order no longer applies, and China can do whatever it wants as long as the Sino-Russian alliance has the military capability to challenge the US, there’s little hope to bring them back to the table, especially when the US has also equally dickish about the matter.
I sincerely doubt international politics is guided by any moral ethic as by self-interest of the mighty.
Most of political history is just that: the triumph of power. Any appeals to morality and standards are just a cloak.
No one is proposing this. At least not me. I just like to look at reality. The current world order has a lot to do with the threat of nuclear war too. The threat of utter destruction shows the limits of might is right. Hence there is incentive to go back to the table.
I dont want a might is right model. But there are areas where we can still cooperate, like environmental issues
The US’ invasion of Iraq was certainly wrong, and that is reflected in the erosion of trust between the US and its allies. This also gave China and Russia a green light to do whatever they felt like doing as well. Including to hinder US efforts in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan by supporting factions that will act as their proxy.
Though it may not be right, there is somewhat of a difference in invading a country with the intent of turning it back over to a democratic government (Iraq, Afghanistan), and taking it over to make it yours (Crimea, Taiwan)
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I don’t think the George W Bush model of invading countries is a great model to follow. And who authorized the US invasion and take out of Gaddafi in Libya? That was a bad move too. All that did was teach dictators in North Korea and elsewhere to NEVER give up their nukes.
Guy
I remember when this happened it was reported that in the area in question both armies had agreed to patrol without guns, to prevent an incident. Then, the brave and honourable Chinese soldiers collected iron bars and bats with barbed wire and other totally-not-weapons for their ambush. Rocks would have been the only thing available to the otherwise unarmed Indians. There was a lot written about this when it happened (and since), you can google it.
I dont think I said that, I meant that if the US wants to win over the developing world and rebuild alliances, it cant act like a total prick anymore.
This is the biggest story in China today and everyone is talking but not talking about it. Stuff like this are the real threats to the party and its all quite shocking. You can say people are more angry about things like this than Xinjiang or things that dont affect their daily lives.
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If you’re Canadian, you should be calling your MP in support of Taiwan.
Not once. Regularly. At least a few times a month.
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Kinda worrying (from Reddit), this is front page of Tencent Toutiao yesterday. Idea of where news is trending right now in China. Tbh, never seen it get to this point of fever before
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Could you summarize what you’re concerned about? I can’t read what’s on those tiny images.
Guy
Pretty much every other story is about war in Taiwan
- Old guy talks about his giant erection on an airplane.
- Creepy guy says his hands didn’t touch the money.
- Games are fun!
- Soldiers running toward nothing much.
- Guy standing in front of U.S. flag talks to guy in front of China’s flag talk about war movies.
- Tsai Ingwen laughs at criticism.
- Ships make a big splash lining up.
- Black guy and Chinese guy don’t like to touch each other.
- Apples in murky booze.
- Some girl who’s boob shy.
- Merkel saying good bye to China relations.
- Soldiers thinking about booking LNY train tickets.
- Tsai Ingwen looking purdy.
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