China to "resolve Taiwan problem" by 2020


#21

History shows that when democracy takes shape empires disintegrate as witnessed by Yugoslavia, Checzoslovakia (spelling) and even Indonesia/Timor. If the next government in Beijing isnt democratic, then I agree it will stick with the previous regimes imperialist policies.


#22

Huh, The USA has been a democracy for 200 years. Did not stop us from taking over California, Philippines, Hawaii, South Korea, Guam and Puerto Rico. :loco:

Even with peaceful political reforms in PRC. I still don’t see them giving up on Taiwan.


#23

[quote]And how would a new government approach the Taiwan issue? And how would Taiwan react to a democratic or pseudo-democratic China? Would Taiwan then drop independence as an agenda and then push for reunification?
[/quote]

(For the period up to 2047)
I think even if there is substantial change to the political structure in China and there was more democracy at every level,even more than one party possible at the top, the main element of autocratic rule in China/Taiwan will not diminish.

I envisage “the China to come”, to be a bigger experiment of “Singapore”. In other words a main conservative party will hold sway like in Singapore for many terms. “Father knows best” and decision by the selected “elites” will be the style by which China will be governed for many years to come. Two narrowly matched parties like in America or India will probably be seen as weak leadership.

Taiwan already has “grassroots” democracy. But such issue as whether to become taidu or even whether to establish stronger links will not be the decision of the average man in Taiwan. I don’t believe it can ever be down to a one man one vote decision/referendum. ie the average man’s vote for his party’s president in Taiwan will not really count. It will all be decided by those at the top as has been the case in China for decades.

Those at the top will somehow be linked on both sides of the straits.
Stronger and stronger links amongst the elites will form. Eventually any decisions is theirs to make.

Some earlier posters made the point that China is moving away from socialism to nationalism. That should be China is moving to a system where the top people have to share power (oligarchic) but nevetheless it is still autocratic top down rule. The govt will of course take advantage of nationalism whenever such feelings are strong as this “energy” brings the people together, and the govt looks like it is carrying out the will of the people.

But nationalism is not a useful or realistic form of excercing governance.
e.g. If China govt does not feel that they should reciprocate for the DiaoYutai nationalistic fervour, they just ignore the people. They tell the demonstrators not to go to the island. Period. They don’t need to appease the people.

Recently the China Govt release a report showing that there were over 56000 protests in various parts of China last year alone. But so what. Do you see China govt on its knees. What I am trying to say is that in the end it is still top-down autocratic style and eventually an oligarchy of some sort, maybe the govt and big businesses and various academic institutes etc will run the show. Chinese people have in-grained respect for all three parties. :unamused:


#24

[quote=“ac_dropout”]Even with peaceful political reforms in PRC. I still don’t see them giving up on Taiwan.[/quote] Taiwan is not their’s to give up on. It never was. This is all the KMT’s double speak that got Taiwan into this trouble. It was the KMT invasion of Taiwan and their bullcrap about “One China”.

The PRC talks big, but they know the moment they do anything to invade this peace loving democratic country, the USA and the rest of the world will be all over them. As will Taiwan and their fighter jets bombing the mainland. They just like to talk trash to help fan the flames of nationalism. Those CCP gangsters robbing the PRC and its citizens got a good thing going. They had better watch out, lest they lose their jobs. Let’s all hope that the PRC can resolve this before 2020 as the sooner they try to resolve this, the sooner there will be regime change in the PRC. The USA and many other countries have been waiting for this for a long time.

Oh yea, and then AC Dropout will be out of a job as well. No more CCP Foreign Propaganda division to fund your posts. By the way AC, stop being such a hypocrite and posting your shite from the USA. You don’t even live in Taiwan!


#25

Hobart,

How am I a hypocrite, you claim to speak for all of Taiwan. Last I check not all of Taiwan reads your Tom Clancey collections.

As for USA support, it is questionable.
As for me losing my job, also questionable.

As for you ever becoming even remotely competent to discuss this issue…a total impossibility.


#26

I dispute whether the USA has been truly democratic for 200 years.
Youre comparing apples to oranges. First of all, South Korea was never an American colony. Hawaii becoming part is a result of sugar planters and US businessmen seeking annexation by the USA to protect themselves against Western European imperialism. Guam, Puerto Rico and the Philippines are the result of a war with Spain in 1898. The reason the first 2 arent independent is that at least 50% ofthe local populace doesnt support it, just like Quebec. Philippines got its independence a long time ago.

Again, history us that the Chinese empire would surely disintegrate if a democratic took hold in Beijing.


#27

Taichungmafia,

I brought up SK as a country that is heavily influenced by the USA in terms of politics. It may have never become a Guam, but our expansionist policy during the Cold War is what caused SK to come into existence.

We disposed of the Queen of Hawaii by gunpoint and took over their nation. Your justification is that the native did not deserve their own nation because American sugar farmer


#28

And today the Filipinos are a lot worse off than the people in Guam or Puerto Rico … because they thought they were smarter than their USA administrators !!!


#29

Falcon,

So given your logic, if the PRC administrator prove to be much smarter than their ROC counterpart, and make the lives of PRC populace much better than that of the ROC populace…that unification should occur…Or does your logic only apply to USA and our respective outer territories.


#30

[quote]We disposed of the Queen of Hawaii by gunpoint and took over their nation. Your justification is that the native did not deserve their own nation because American sugar farmer


#31

Taichungmafia,

Actually the USA is the last remaining Empire on the planet, last time I checked the papers. So does that mean the USA will start wars to assert its authority?

In any event, is the PRC version of “ethnic and cultural” cleansing as disruptive as USA and Native Americans, or Nazi and European Jews. Or is it just another example of 漢化 (Sinocization) which has been going on in China for thousands of years.


#32

[quote]Actually the USA is the last remaining Empire on the planet, last time I checked the papers[/quote].

I think youre confusing primacy with imperialism. I dont like American foreign policy, but its not the same as the grotesque 19th century thuggery that Beijing imposes on its conquered peoples.

No, it`s the former. I saw it first hand. This another PRC lie, that East Turkestan has been Chinese for thousands of years.


#33

Taichungmafia,

Obvious only the USA can be imperial. Most people agree PRC cannot project its military might too far beyond its boarder, hence they must be practicing primacy policies.

So what did you see first hand?

And yes I agree the East Turestan has been in Chinese control for ages, but they are not Han, they are another Chinese ethnic minority.


#34

[quote=“ac_dropout”]

And yes I agree the East Turestan has been in Chinese control for ages, but they are not Han, they are another Chinese ethnic minority. [/quote]

For any place China claim as their territory, they always find some convenient story of how the Chinese or descendants of them controlled it or settled there for years.

Therefore it must be theirs.

Then if anyone steps forward in support of that country… the Chinese claim that it is an internal matter i.e Taiwan


#35

[quote=“ac_dropout”]Taichungmafia,

Obvious only the USA can be imperial. Most people agree PRC cannot project its military might too far beyond its boarder, hence they must be practicing primacy policies.

So what did you see first hand?

And yes I agree the East Turestan has been in Chinese control for ages, but they are not Han, they are another Chinese ethnic minority.[/quote]

China is imperial in the way that Austria, or Russia, or Turkey was imperial back in the 19th century era of multi-ethnic empires. All of them had ethnic groups that they held prisoner, and they were all held in a contiguous territory.

China today isn’t dissimiliar to this. The Mongols in Inner Mongolia, the Turkic peoples in East Turkestan, the Tibetans in Tibet, the Hmong and Zhuang in Guangxi, the various ethnic groups in Yunnan. What do all of these area have in common? All were conquered by force of arms by the Chinese, in some cases more than once. All of them have ethnic minorities that are currently being displaced by Han invaders. None of them have the power to determine their own future. Please tell me how this is dissimiliar with the 19th century empires previously identified!


#36

ludahai,

The Mongols ruled China during the Yuan Dynasty. The Mongols sinocization occurred thousands of years ago.

There are more Mongol in Inner Mongolia than Outer Mongolia, becuase they were fleeing the Russians at the time.

Only a foriegner would have this kind of interpretation of Chinese history.


#37

Theyre Imperial in the way that 19th century European states like Austria were. Beijing doesnt allow East Turkestan to have sovereigntist movements unlike Quebec or Puerto Rico. Democracy would allow this and that would be the end of China`s colonial policies towards E.Turkestan and Taiwan.

No, East Turkestan was conquered by the Manchu`s in 1759 and continues under ythe colonial rule of the PRC.


#38

Taichungmafia,

Obviously you must be applying some sort of double standard. European colonialist are not imperial, yet China is. Let’s just agree that all strong governments worldwide practice expanding their sphere of influence.

East Turkestand has been an incorporated province of China longer than the existance of USA. So the day you start advocating the return of the USA to the native Americans, is the day East Turkestand has a chance of gaining independence.


#39

No, Im afraid its you thats applying the double standards. The Europeans admit they were imperialist and then ended this hideous practice while PR China not only refuses to admit it, it wants to expand the empire to Taiwan. Again, if by some miraculous occurrence Beijing became a democratic, then its current borders would shrink considerably and it`s farcical claim to Taiwan would die.

Not exactly, the brave people of East Turkestan through off their brutal Chinese oppressors from 1861-1879. From 1944-1949 the Republic of East Turkestan fell to Chinese imperial designs with the aid of their Soviet allies. Which is ironic since Mao promised to end Chinese colonial rule over East Turkestan and respect her sovereignty in a speech he gave in 1936. China needs East Turkestan`s mineral wealth.

Not the same situation as the East Turkestan people have already had a nation according to the standards of the Montevideo Convention and it was stolen by imperial China.


#40

HAHAHAHHAHH
:smiley: :laughing: :slight_smile:

China hasn’t fallen apart in the last 200 years after the Opium War, the invasion of 8 nations, the Open Door policy, a civil war, a cold war, a Sino-USSR conflict, the Korean War, the Vietnam war, the Cultural revolution, the Tiananmen incident, and SARS.

And somehow it suppose to all fall apart now.

You should definitely tell me the name of your drug supplier. LOL.