(for the Americans here)
I wonder what kind of response you’d get if you
showed up with a sign reading “Americans for One China.”
If the Taiwanese thought that the United States wanted nothing
to do with Taiwan and that the relations with this island
need to be reassessed in the new era of engagement, not confrontation,
with China, do you think they’d be happy?
First of all, STOP_Ma, that is not the “first time” it’s been stated.
And to respond to cctang, Li Zhaoxing made several statements in response to questions. One thing was “Taiwan is a part of China.” Another is the mention of the 1971 UN decision to transfer recognition of China to the PRC. It’s not a change of policy, as I said. But it marks the end of an era where Beijing continually softened its statement on the issue in order to give Taiwan more ambiguity, the most open one being around 2002-2003 with “The mainland and Taiwan are both parts of one China” or something like that. Unfortunately, all that happened was TI/ers took advantage of it. As for the development plan – it isn’t so much the development plan itself that makes me believe there is a change of language, but the insistence of the writer when questioned.
[quote=“grg”](for the Americans here)
I wonder what kind of response you’d get if you
showed up with a sign reading “Americans for One China.”
If the Taiwanese thought that the United States wanted nothing
to do with Taiwan and that the relations with this island
need to be reassessed in the new era of engagement, not confrontation,
with China, do you think they’d be happy?[/quote]
Maybe “Americans for One China and Strait peace.”
That sums it up pretty well for me and that is the US policy anyway.
I think the people who really need to know (TI/ers) aren’t going to be at this particular parade. And no, they (TI/ers) won’t like it one bit, which has to tell you something about their role in causing unnecessary problems that are detrimental to others.
Hmm…
Let’s see. The PRC is now publically declaring Taiwan to be under its sovereignty with 800 missiles pointed at the island (and a law which forces the military to act) and Taiwan is causing “unnecessary problems” by exercising its right to govern in a democratic system. Last time I checked, Taiwan wasn’t threatening China in any way whatsoever.
Interesting logic, zeugmite. Interesting indeed.
That’s not true either. ROC still send spies to the mainland. ROC still has an arms package it wishes to purchase from the USA.
Perhaps the TI view of the world is too one sided.
[quote=“zeugmite”]
And to respond to cctang, Li Zhaoxing made several statements in response to questions. One thing was “Taiwan is a part of China.” Another is the mention of the 1971 UN decision to transfer recognition of China to the PRC. It’s not a change of policy, as I said. But it marks the end of an era where Beijing continually softened its statement on the issue in order to give Taiwan more ambiguity, the most open one being around 2002-2003 with “The mainland and Taiwan are both parts of one China” or something like that. Unfortunately, all that happened was TI/ers took advantage of it. As for the development plan – it isn’t so much the development plan itself that makes me believe there is a change of language, but the insistence of the writer when questioned.[/quote]
Zeugmite,
Li did reiterate that few nations recognize an independent Taiwan, and that the United Nations does not recognize an independent Taiwan, etc, etc. I don’t see how that’s a tightening in policy… it’s a statement of fact.
As in the article I just linked, Li Zhaoxing said yesterday that “the mainland Taiwan are both parts of China”. This wasn’t 2002-2003, this was yesterday. This remains the Chinese position, and it hasn’t softened at all.
On the other hand, STOP_Ma conveniently found for us an example of the old phrasing… which has been used in the PRC’s Constitution for the past two decades. The Constitution (passed in 1982, modified in '88, '93, '99) of the People’s Republic of China says in its preamble, explicitly:
Taiwan is part of the sacred territory of the People’s Republic of China.
台湾是中华人民共和国的神圣领土的一部分。
Beijing no longer says this. The new phrasing is very clear: 大陆和台湾同属一个中国.
This is a tremendous point of consensus between the pan-Blues and mainland China, and we can’t perpetuate the myth that it’s being discarded. That’s what Chen Shui-bian would like the world to think.
[quote=“STOP_Ma”]MAC reiterates Taiwan’s sovereignty
I guess the 1992 consensus can go to hell, huh?![/quote]
It’s gone to hell because the TI administration has made a point of trashing it, especially in the last month.
Do you need help with reading comprehension again? I think you do.
The PRC has a stance that would be ideal for it on the one hand, but it also offered up a compromise that it is willing to put up with for the sake of cross-straits peace and negotiations. This compromise was to let the 1992 Concensus do its work and it was the farthest the PRC was willing to venture and the farthest that an interpretation of the status quo allowed.
It’s time you face the fact any TI move has consequences, and rejecting all compromise that the status quo allows, as the CSB administration has done, does not make your life any better or make TI more likely.
Here, let me put it another way, because some people can be kind of slow. Of course the PRC believes “China” means the PRC. But it also knows “China” and “PRC” carry different meanings to different people. “China” has much more room for interpretation" than “PRC.” The PRC is never going to state for you that China should mean the ROC. That’s the ROC’s job. The ROC is the one that believes (legally at least) that “China” means the ROC. But to those willing to compromise, the PRC will just say “China” and leave it be so the other side’s version isn’t recognized or denied, just blissfully ignored, letting cross-strait dialogue and life to go on. The other side is welcome to do likewise. Anyone with half a wit knows this is the grease that makes things work and everyone with half a wit knows the PRC will still be recognized as China as far as most of the world is concerned because it’s been that way since the 70s, but somehow TI/ers seem “shocked” to discover the PRC itself recognizes the PRC as China. That means TI/ers don’t have even half a wit.
cctang:
The public words of the PRC prove you to be wrong. Another recent example:
[quote]“We will adhere to the fundamental principles of peaceful reunification and 'one country, two systems,’ and maintain and promote a peaceful and stable development of the cross-Strait relations with our utmost sincerity and greatest endeavors to strive for a prospect of peaceful reunification,” Jia said[/quote].
en.chinabroadcast.cn/811/2006/03/05/48@58150.htm
And here is one for you zeugmite – from 2004 (before the anti-secession law):
Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Zhang Qiyue’s Press Conference on 11 November 2004
It was also stated, publicly, in 2003:
cctang, I believe the understanding reached by the pan-blues and mainland China stands. The basic policy hasn’t changed. As long as the pan-blue platform doesn’t do a 180 by the time they become the ruling party again, the compromise is still on the table.
I think there has been a change of language after the NUC issue – less ambiguity, less compromising tone. What that means is simply this: the compromise that was extended to the CSB administration is dead. Now we just see what comes in 2008.
STOP_Ma,
I point you to this response already made, to help you with your reading comprehension deficiency:
forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi … 503#511503
[quote=“zeugmite”]STOP_Ma,
I point you to this response already made, to help you with your reading comprehension deficiency:
forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi … 503#511503[/quote]
And I prefer to base my judgments on facts that are actually documented and not some alleged verbal agreement made between two unelected governments.
I refer you to the multiple instances where the PRC has publicly declared that:
Anyhow, let’s get back on topic – shall we?
Bring back the NUC!
Taiwan is an inalienable part of the territory of the People’s Republic of China!
cctang, I tell you … the TI/ers would like nothing better than for the ROC to die a brutal death, so they can say “Yes yes yes, of course China is the PRC. We agree! We agree!”
All this “shock” is such a farce.
How come when pan-Greens had their various protest, no civilized pan-Blue supporter would go “Japan wants you to protest the PRC?”
zeugmite,
Yep, I think we totally agree on a few key points. As STOP_Ma is helpfully pointing out, Beijing has only over the past 2-3 years shifted from the “China = PRC” stance. This neutral definition of China will be the starting point of dramatic reconcillation if/when the DPP are swept from office.
And yes, that’s exactly why CSB and the DPP are doing all they can to insist that no such softening in Beijing policy has occurred. They know that it has, but in this bizarro world, the last thing the current DPP administration wants is a softer line from Beijing.
Now this is the official line on the issue, probably being reiterated to counter the Green’s intentional obfuscation campaign:
Calling Jia “an advisor” is misleading. He’s the head of the CPPCC, which is an “advisorial” body to the Chinese state. He’s also one of the few permanent members of the CCP’s standing committee (#4 in the PRC’s hierarchy, I believe), and the man responsible for all Taiwan policy.
Uhhh…because Japan doesn’t want to annex Taiwan. :loco:
You sure about that? Why did Japan unilaterally expand their EEEZ last year to deny Taiwanese fisherman their right to fish in Taiwanese waters around Diaoyutai?
Base on Japan’s claim they own the water a few km off Taiwan’s shores.
The PRC doesn’t make that claim or seize Taiwanese fishermen assests, suspend their civil rights, and fine them huge amount of money for fishing right off the Taiwan’s coast.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]You sure about that? Why did Japan unilaterally expand their EEEZ last year to deny Taiwanese fisherman their right to fish in Taiwanese waters around Diaoyutai?
Base on Japan’s claim they own the water a few km off Taiwan’s shores.
The PRC doesn’t make that claim or seize Taiwanese fishermen assests, suspend their civil rights, and fine them huge amount of money for fishing right off the Taiwan’s coast.[/quote]
And Canada has disputes with other countries off the coast of Newfoundland. A territorial dispute does not equate to annexation. :loco:
[quote=“STOP_Ma”][quote=“ac_dropout”]You sure about that? Why did Japan unilaterally expand their EEEZ last year to deny Taiwanese fisherman their right to fish in Taiwanese waters around Diaoyutai?
Base on Japan’s claim they own the water a few km off Taiwan’s shores.
The PRC doesn’t make that claim or seize Taiwanese fishermen assests, suspend their civil rights, and fine them huge amount of money for fishing right off the Taiwan’s coast.[/quote]
And Canada has disputes with other countries off the coast of Newfoundland. A territorial dispute does not equate to annexation. :loco:[/quote]
According to this site, China is the number one country in numbers of major land disputes: didyouknow.cd/story/disputes.htm
The Diaoyutai islands are not even closer to China than it is to Taiwan and the small Japanese islands, although its about equidistant from Taiwan and Okinawa.
Its about (from these crude maps) about or more than 50km from Taiwan. I thought most countries consider 10nm from their shores as their air or seaspace?
(Yes I acknowledge that in 2001 China said something about 100nm but that sounds overly hilarious).
Anyway, this whole topic is off, and we have been diverted from the main point yet again.