China will keep growing for years... but

Very good comprehensive article from the Independent. I link it here partly because I used the figures from the Goldman Sachs “BRIC” paper in a post last week. In that thread, I was arguing on the basis of these numbers that Taiwan’s economy (assuming it’s growth matches that of Japan for the next 50 years) would be smaller than most mainland provinces by the year 2050. (It was ahead of Tibet, Xinjiang, Gansu, Inner Mongolia, Qinghai, etc…)

Well, now we’re told China’s growth so far has surpassed even BRIC’s predictions! This article discusses some of the implications in the context of the UK and Europe… something readers from anywhere should keep in mind.

Of course, these sorts of predictions are easy to make but hard to implement; we’re talking about a development that has no parallel in human history. It surely wouldn’t take much to derail China’s remarkable growth.

news.independent.co.uk/business/ … 333272.ece

Other than saying that Taiwan’s economy will be smaller than most mainland provinces – the article or your commentary fails to discuss anything about Taiwan (let alone, Taiwan politics).

You know – the “category” of this forum.

I always wondered about this period in history. Well I guess I have one interpretation of events.

I wonder what USA will do to Taiwan to protect USA economic interest.

I’ve never really understood the concerns about Japan’s economy having stagnated. It seemed to me, just on the basis of my very cursory knowledge, that most Japanese had already achieved all of the material wealth they needed.

Isn’t that the end-state of economic growth? We couldn’t possibly always want more stuff (at least, manufactured stuff…), could we?

You may not need a robotic vacuum cleaner or a Dancing Helly Kitty ring toner indicator, but the market does exist.

In terms of economics, the consumer market and consumerism, no matter how trival the product or service, is highest form of economic development we know thus far.

I always wondered about this period in history. Well I guess I have one interpretation of events.

I wonder what USA will do to Taiwan to protect USA economic interest.[/quote]

Great minds think alike AC - As I was reading through the article, that was the bit I wanted to comment on too.

Short answer I guess is that the comparison is inappropriate. The US could bash the Japanese over the head over trade and market access, because there was very little US investment/participation in the local economy (it’s still small, I think). The appreciaton in the Yen only hurt the Japanese, both consumers and producers. Very different story in China today. If the US government pushed for a radical revaluation of the RMB, they’d have every major US corporation beating a path to Washington. Can you think of a leading American firm that’s not in China? There’s an argument that they would win from an exchange rate realignment because their Chinese assets would subsequently be worth more relative to US holdings, but I don’t buy it. The bulk of foreign firms are in China today for the cheap labor (still less than US labor costs by a factor of 10 I understand) and to produce stuff for export. A stronger Yuan makes that tougher, so odds are on they would complain bitterly about any move by the US government to push hard on the issue.

I always wondered about this period in history. Well I guess I have one interpretation of events.

I wonder what USA will do to Taiwan to protect USA economic interest.[/quote]

Great minds think alike AC - As I was reading through the article, that was the bit I wanted to comment on too.

Short answer I guess is that the comparison is inappropriate. The US could bash the Japanese over the head over trade and market access, because there was very little US investment/participation in the local economy (it’s still small, I think). The appreciaton in the Yen only hurt the Japanese, both consumers and producers. Very different story in China today. If the US government pushed for a radical revaluation of the RMB, they’d have every major US corporation beating a path to Washington. Can you think of a leading American firm that’s not in China? There’s an argument that they would win from an exchange rate realignment because their Chinese assets would subsequently be worth more relative to US holdings, but I don’t buy it. The bulk of foreign firms are in China today for the cheap labor (still less than US labor costs by a factor of 10 I understand) and to produce stuff for export. A stronger Yuan makes that tougher, so odds are on they would complain bitterly about any move by the US government to push hard on the issue.[/quote]

In the 80s, the US had a scare about Japanese companies buying out US companies and the rising sun taking over corporate america. now, we see the same with China (Unocal e.g.). It’s interesting how no one seems to talk seriously about how middle eastern oil countries with their billions upon billions of dollars (larger than the US-Chinese trade deficit) owns large portions of America, etc. Certainly it’s fear of reprisal, since OPEC holds such a dear commodity. I would not hesitate to believe that racial overtones would lie in both, except for that trump card. As scary as Chevron’s record profits in 1 quarter alone, think about the oil players behind them who pump that stuff out.

The rise of the Japanese economy of the '80s was very much a “us” (Americans) versus “them” (Japanese) phenemon. It was Toyota and Honda trying to replace Ford and GM; Sony taking everything, etc.

You can’t say that about today. China’s “rise” today is very much occurring hand-in-hand with American interests. How many Chinese brands does the American consumer see? Zero. The average American consumer isn’t going to feel threatened by brands like IBM, Nike, Levi’s, Gap, GM, or Walmart… even if the underlying products represented by these brands are being manufactured in China.

The oil question really is a very significant one. I really hope China stays out of the petroleum-consumption trap. It’s an expensive habit that really affects your entire strategic outlook. One of China’s first strategic economic goals was to be self-reliant on rice/grains; well, oil is just as important to the modern economy.

What I find interesting about this situation is that the USA passed new legislation to prevent the acquition from occuring citing security issues.

However, when USA company buy large stakes in PRC companies the PRC companies don’t reciprocate with the same xenophobic legislation.

[quote]http://goldsea.com/Asiagate/512/15bank.html

Citigroup Inc. has offered US$1.5 billion (euro1.2 billion) for a 50 percent stake in the Guangdong Development Bank, state media reported Thursday, in the latest move by an international bank to secure a foothold in China’s rapidly expanding banking sector. [/quote]

Anyways there are 2 simple solution to the “will China get old before it get rich problem.” The simpliest is to repeal the domestic policy of 1 child act for urban Hans. The second solution is to allow for easier immigration of non-Chinese into the PRC.

Of course my favorite solution is to letting ROC citizen freely procreate on the Mainland, letting their children qualify for dual citizenship in the China(s).

But AC, the solution is not that simple. Keep in mind that we are talking about a period of 25+ years when every two adults in the population have produced no more than one child. Sure, the policy has been broken or bent in rural/minority areas, but the extra bodies produced in those areas are not likely to grow up to be the highly productive workers that will be able to bridge the gap and keep the economy growing briskly. The bitter medicine of the one child policy is that it locks the PRC into a long period during which importation of workers will be the only possible way of achieving a reasonable balance between the number of working people and the number of people they support either privately or through taxes.

Do you really believe that the PRC is able to open itself up to so many foreign workers? Keep in mind that since most couples have only been able to have one child in the past 20+ years, the country would theoretically have to add one foreign worker for ever new worker who enters the workplace. Of course productivity gains will lower that number a lot, but the number of imported workers needed will still be staggering. Also keep in mind that China won’t just need unskilled workers. They will also need a large number of professionals in order to keep improving living standards and keep economic growth firmly in positive territory.

Do you really think the mainland is ready or able to integrate foreign talent into the economy? I’m not talking about consultants. I’m talking about workers at all levels who will fit into the system as seamlessly as immigrant workers in western countries. That is what it will take. And you may say “give the mainland a couple of decades more of opening and it will be much easier for such workers to fit in.” Having seen myself the dramatic reforms happening in the mainland economy, I would agree with such a statement. Unfortunately, two decades from now will be two decades late. Starting from about now, all of the young workers entering the labor force will be of the one child generation. Even if the one child policy were completely ended tomorrow, the next 20 to 25 years would still be a period where for every two workers leaving the workforce, only one will be available to replace them. That is a truly daunting challenge for the mainland economy. Raising of retirement ages or whatever trickle of foreign labor can be had will only be a drop in the bucket, and neither of these two things looks likely to happen in the next ten years.

Now to those on this forum who might say I’m overly pessimistic, I will say that this situation will not necessarily mean all doom and gloom for China’s economy. However, I do think that the best possible outlook for most people will be that living standards will not continue to improve so sharply. China has no decent healthcare system now, and it won’t get one until at least 25 years from now. There will also probably be some benefits for many people since the until now constantly rising demand on some resources will slacken. The highly productive will no doubt continue to enjoy higher and higher living standards. However, for the next two to three decades most mainlanders will only be able to keep or slowly improve upon their families’ current living standards, and this is only because of the huge productivity gains that have been happening in the past couple of decades. I bet that China will just reach middle income country status and then be stuck there for at least a couple of decades. The tightening labor market will drive up costs and make other countries more attractive for many kinds of investment.

And of course this was how it had to be. In 2030, a China that will have just experienced over 20 years of a super tight labor market will still be infinitely better off than a China that had never implemented population controls in the first place.

I think the first half of your solution is already happening. There is no shortage of Taiwanese sired bastards in the Pearl and Yangtze River delta regions.

Um, no, there are plenty of parallels in human history. Western Europe’s and Japan’s development after WWII, the U.S.‘s development after the Great Depression, the Asian tigers’ development, not to mention the rapid development during the 19th century’s industrial revolution. China isn’t unique, it’s just playing catch-up. I read an interesting statistic the other day - the average American has seen their standard of living increase by 875% since 1940. It would be interesting if China could match that sort of growth in the next 65 years.

Sure, there are “parallels”… just like the growth of my bank account “parallels” that of Bill Gates’ bank account. It’s just that the magnitude of the two are, er, slightly different.

Standard of living increase by 875% since 1940? China’s GDP has already increased by 677% since 1980… and although I’m just restating the obvious here: that rate of growth shows absolutely no sign of abating over the next 40 years.

Let me take the numbers at face value. The United States has apparently grown 875% in “standard of living” (per capita GDP in real dollars?) over the past 65 years. Do you have any idea what kind of numbers are predicted for China in the 65 years from 1980 through 2045…?

         1980      2045

GDP $300b $40000b (BRIC)
Pop 980m 1437m
GDP/p $305 $27835

GDP/per capita growth: 9126% over these 65 years. Let’s assume 2% inflation over this time period… fine, that still leaves us a GDP/per capita improvement in real dollars of 2535% over this 65 year period, compared to the statistic you just offered. In other words, China’s growth post 1980 is projected to be about 3 times as fast as the United States’ post-Great Depression growth.

And let’s not look at just GDP/per capita, while we ignore the size of the population involved here. China’s population is 4 times that of Europe, 5 times that of the United States, 10 times the size of Japan, and about 20 times the size of all the “Asian Tigers” combined. By the very nature of that fact, China’s growth is “unparalleled” in human history.

I think that “foreign workers” will play a role in the Chinese economy… but JiveTurkey’s right, let’s keep the numbers in perspective. Even if every single working American moved to China tomorrow (121 million), it’d still only be a fraction of the Chinese economy. As I’ve pointed out elsewhere, China’s expecting to urbanize 520 million Chinese over the next 20 years.

But that very number is precisely why the “demographics” emphasis isn’t as stark as you’ve presented them. First, there’s the sheer urbanization factor: every worker is a “new” worker, not replacing an old one. Second, there’s the education factor: right now, China’s currently graduating 3 million university graduates per year. In urban China, % of high-school graduates headed to universities are reaching unheard of numbers (getting close to Taiwan numbers). What were the comparable numbers 30 years ago? Zero, of course, thanks to the GPCR.

In other words, it’s not “one worker replacing two workers”; it’s “one engineer replacing two farmers”.

Let me tell you what I see from my generation. My parents generation consisted of 9 brothers/sisters (both side of the family); in my generation, we have 6 only children, and 3 two-child families. My family is pretty extraordinarily educated (3 grandparents are former professors), but of the 9 members of my parents’ generation, only 3 have university degrees. My parents’ generation are supporting themselves in retirement by pooling together savings/pensions, and being responsible for down payment on a home.

Now, my generation. Of this generation, 11 out of the 12 have college degrees (let’s not talk about the dark sheep; kidding, love her to death too). Furthermore, every family in my generation is (or will be) a two-income family; no housewives in sight. My generation is already responsible for paying the mortgage on the shared family homes, and I think we’ll be able to take care of our parents generation. It’ll probably be even easier for peasant families moving into the cities. Forced to live harvest/harvest in previous years, their sons/daughters will be working in factories, hospitals, firms putting far more into savings than they could’ve ever expected.

I agree with both of you guys, at the end of the day. ac’s right that it’s time to eliminate the one-child policy; it’s not too late, and it is time to think of the generation following ours. JiveTurkey’s right that it still won’t be enough to make a difference over the next 20-30 years; I too think we’ll be “stuck” in a medium level of development for a while (on a per capita basis), while the modernized West moves further ahead.

There will be no crisis, and as JiveTurkey says… the alternative of never having had this policy would be infinitely worse.

Hmm. Is it all that special:

[quote]Martin Wolf is associate editor and chief economics commentator at the Financial Times in London.

When people discuss China’s economic growth, it’s usually with awe. But these assessments of the country’s economic performance almost always end with one question: How long can China’s rapid growth continue? It’s an obvious, even banal question. Yet it is not the right one. Because asking it suggests that there has been something extraordinary about the growth of the Asian colossus over the past 25 years. What is remarkable is not how quickly China’s economy has grown, but rather how slowly it has done so.

The speed with which a country can grow is a function of how far it is lagging behind the productivity levels of the world’s most advanced economies. That is why each generation of catch-up economies has tended to grow faster than the previous one. When China’s surge began, its per capita GDP was only a twentieth of that of the United States. Even now, after 25 years of growth, China’s per capita output is only 15 percent of that of the United States. Japan’s was a fifth of that of the United States in 1950, even before its record-breaking growth surge began.

So why hasn’t Beijing done a better job? Because, China’s economy is still highly inefficient. The voracious maw of China’s stateowned enterprises accounts for much of this drag. Between 1993 and 2000, more than 60 percent of all loans went to these state-owned behemoths. The country’s notoriously high level of bad loans tells you how good an investment they have been: The Standard & Poor’s rating agency currently estimates that China’s banks have issued about $650 billion in bad loans, or about 40 percent of outstanding loans. If an economy growing at close to 10 percent a year generates bad loans on this scale, the misallocation of capital has to be gigantic. Although countries such as South Korea or Taiwan may not have had as much capital, they obtained considerably more growth for their investment buck. The same was true of Japan in its highgrowth phase. The same is true of India today.

The bottom line is clear. Do not think China’s rapid growth is either extraordinary or a flash in the pan. It is neither. The social and political obstacles to China’s rapid growth are considerable. But the opportunity remains enormous. China’s economic boom could well be in its middle, not its end.[/quote]

When cctang mentioned IBM I was thinking they were bought over by a Chinese firm, but it only applies to the personal computer business (including laptops) as I found out. Anyhow, in my quick search I stumbled across the following article which may be of interest: China’s exports in perspective

[quote]Even now, after 25 years of growth, China’s per capita output is only 15 percent of that of the United States. Japan’s was a fifth of that of the United States in 1950, even before its record-breaking growth surge began.

So why hasn’t Beijing done a better job?
[/quote]
I don’t really get the point about China “not having done a better job”. It’s about China starting from a far lower base. Based on that article’s numbers, that means China’s per capita GDP (as a % of US per capita GDP) has tripled over the past 25 years. That’s a pretty extraordinary number, especially since it shows no sign of slowing.

You can’t really compare Japanese/Chinese development post-1950. While the United States blew Hiroshima/Nagasaki + Japanese industry back to the stone age, the expertise/human capital of what was in effect a modern Japanese nation didn’t dissappear. A quick infusion of investment capital quickly (20 years) allowed Japan to regain its pre-war efficiencies. What about China? China had never entered the industrial age; as I said earlier, 3% of the Chinese population were hs-graduates in 1950, and probably less than 1/4 were literate.

The more probing question would be… why did China start from a lower base in 1950? I’ll leve that for a different thread.

As far as “keeping China’s exports in perspective”, I think Mr. Schwarz is getting off-target with his rebuke. Anyone that argues the Chinese economy is already superior to the American economy on an individual basis is out of line; it’s not. American business still dominate international business.

But the OECD article that he quotes mentions “progress” for Chinese industry in catching up in technology. What’s Mr. Schwarz trying to rebut, here? Is he seriously arguing that Chinese industry hasn’t made any progress in high tech? Does this “perspective” even need to be discussed?

Anything that the Taiwanese, Japanese, and Koreans have done over the past 30 years… the mainland Chinese can do. Just as smart, just as disciplined, and more hungry. Who thought 5 years ago that we’d even be debating today whether Dell or a mainland Chinese computer company would be more technologically advanced? What will we be debating 5 years from now?

Read the whole thing:
carnegieendowment.org/public … w&id=16543

Ah, but you can compare Japan’s performance pre-1950 to China’s current performance, and perhaps that is the better comparison. Post-Meiji Restoration Japan started from a similar non-industrialized, peasant society as China did, and developed more rapidly than any other nation in history.

Whatever… the Chicomm economy will evolve, sure - but the political system will never! Unless all the Chicomm are expropriated, that is.

The evolution of the KMT and Chicomm are markedly diverging…

I think one thing the article overlooks is PRC citizens personal view.

Everytime I visit an urban area in the PRC, I am overwhelm with the number of young people (20’s and 30’s), it like I have to keep reminding myself there are old people somewhere.

The other thing that I see that is beneficial to PRC development is that these young people are extremely optimistic about their future and the future of the PRC.

So they are not waiting around for people to save them. They will have a policy or a solution to whatever obstacles they precieve.

I have a slightly different take on the pitfalls PRC faces as go through this unprecedented period of growth. One is general education for the population. Without the a more educated workforce in general I don’t see the PRC moving out of the manufacturing sector.

The next issue I forsee is technology being used more to replace the low skill workforce. So there will be a turning point in PRC society when rising wage levels will cause companies to displace workers with technological replacement. I will be interested to see how the PRC will manage this transitional phase in their society.