Chinese Family "Values"

Discussion Open Forum
21

[quote=“antilogic”]1. Assumption… Assumption… And more assumption…

You based your argument solely on the assumption that majority of Taiwanese couples consisted of husband and wife who hate each other. Please show me statistics to support your theory, I challenge you. To successfuly refute my argument, you must give me statistics (family life satisfaction… etc) that shows Taiwanese couples who opt to remain in marriage are mostly angry husband/wife pairs. I challenge you to do that.[/quote]

Wrong. littleiron did NOT base his argument on that assumption… littleiron merely stated that many couples who were not happy have for various reasons stayed married in Taiwan. He did NOT state that most marriages in Taiwan are unhappy. Who’s making assumptions now? :unamused:

[quote=“antilogic”]I’d reiterate my claim for your edification.

The reason that Asian countries enjoy such low divorce rate is mainly because majority of married Asian couples are satisfied with their marriages. (as statistics “ie. family life satisfaction rate” strongly suggested).[/quote]

Data? Moreover, define “satisfied”.

By itself, divorce rate does not mean anything. However, if you take a look at the overall picture, it does say a lot about eastern/western family values. Fact- more married Asian couples are satisfied with their marriages and their family lives than their western counterparts.[/quote]

Data?

Please show me how you establish the casual relationship, and the facts and numbers you pull to arrive to this conclusion. Hey! I thought I was the Olympic-class conclusion jumper! Guess who just won the gold medal? :P[/quote]

“Casual” relaionship? Do you mean “causal”? In any event, I recently read that Taiwan’s divorce rate was approximately 40%. I think I saw it in a report regarding an amended portion of Taiwan’s family law or possibly it was in the report about Taiwan’s Legislative Yuan seeking to mandate pre-marriage classes. Look it up if you think it is false.

About the relevant Taiwan laws governing divorce… if you are unaware of the legal regime regulating family relationships in Taiwan, perhaps you are not sufficiently informed to debate this topic. But there are plenty of Taiwanese lobbying groups, including the Awakening Foundation, that have been pushing for changes in the laws related to marriage and divorce in Taiwan. But if you still fail to see the connection, think of Ireland’s recent circumstances, where there was virtually no divorce up until a few years ago, when Ireland’s government made divorce legal.

  1. In my opinion, ‘westernization’ is Taiwan’s biggest problem. If you compare the statistics (such as domestic violence rate or the change in view toward extramarital affairs) from 30 years ago with present, I’m sure you’ll see the trends and agree with me. More exposure to Western culture for Asian countries means more failed marriages. Period.[/quote]

Again, who’s jumping to conclusions? Despite your TV upbringing, changes in Taiwanese society today are, IMO, more a result of modernization than they are of westernization. And if the Taiwanese want to go backward, who is stopping them from doing that? In 1776, 97% of the American people were farmers. Today, only about 2% of Americans are farming for a living. American society changed with the transformation from agrarian to industrial and again to hi-tech and services. Taiwan is undergoing similar changes and transformations. I think it is a mistake, and a sign of lack of objectivity, and or ignorance, to blame bad behavior in Taiwan on westernization. Moreover, it reflects an unwillingness to accept blame. Hopefully, not everyone thinks as you do on this matter.

personal experience… overgeneralization… I think… hmmm… :smiley:[/quote]

That isn’t my quote. However, there is in fact, a place for empirical evidence in discussions such as the present one… so long as the poster identifies the same as personal observation rather than scientific fact… which the above poster did…

Of course. I just take it as the ramblings of an insufficiently informed individual… no offense :wink:

22

What is the definition of “satisfaction”? You do realize, don’t you, that “satisfaction” relies heavily on prior expectation? If I enter into a marriage relationship with very high expectations, the chances of my being dissatisfied are quite high. Contrastingly, if I enter into a marriage relationship with very low expectations, the chances of my being satisfied are quite high.

23

Taiwan is modernizing. Moreover, a big part of the “problem” is the fact that many Taiwanese women are fed up with being relegated to the role of housewives. I know several young career-women, who don’t want to marry, because they fear that they will have to give up any notions of having a career afterwards.

Unhappy marriages? I have run into a few, where hte mother in law made the daugher in law very unhappy with the state of things. Little wonder quite a few women opt out. My father in law has bought a flat, he can move into, when his son marries. More enlightened than most men his age.

Family values are changing here, but it was a surprise to me, that the divorce ratio is that high. I used to work as a guide for Taiwanese tourists. They usually told me that the divorce ratio in Taiwan was 5%. Once, however a sociology professor told me that it was 25% - that was some years ago, though.

Later, when I used that figure in my comparisions to Denmark, the Taiwanese usually protested, saying that it was way too high.

The idea with the pre-marriage counselling is as hare-brained as any I have heard here. The people getting divorced will do so, especially new, when the laws seem to treat women a bit more fairly. Pre-divorce councelling is mandatory in Denmark. It is usually performed by priests. My aunt is one, and she can’t think of a single instance, where she managed to save a marriage, as it’s usually too late to try to do anything, when the divorce papers have been handed in.

Instead of talking of Asian values etc, then Taiwanese should realize that their country is getting more modern and that attitudes will change. Making sure that the legal framework matches this should take precedence.

I wouldn’t call Taiwan a traditional place though. I mean, they have betel nut girls here, bordellos/barber shops/binguans at every other corner at least outside Taipei, bullbe tea girls, rampant adultery etc.

Perhaps one thing irking the traditionalists here is that in the old days, the men could do as they pleased, as the wifes would never file for a divorce, they would be kept in place by their mother in laws, and that the men could get all the sex, they wanted at the karaoke parlour across the street. Now, at least the wife can run off with the kids, in case things get a bit too oppressive.

That said, I have met a few younger Taiwanese men, who seem like responsible fathers and husbands and who let their wives work and develop. However, those men are usually young, well educated and with a measure of decadent western exposure.

24

I tend to differ. The reason your statistics show glowing family satisfaction rates is because very rarely would an Asian admit their home life sucks, especially to a stranger taking a poll (times ten if the poll taker is a round eye). And if some guy is cheating on his wife, and his wife still doesn’t know and is still cooking his meals and raising his kids, of course he’d give his family satisfaction rate a high score.

25

Antilogic, why do you keep presenting statistics that don’t include Taiwan, when the discussion is about Taiwan? By the way, despite being a mere cainiao, you are already becoming a bore.

26

I asked how tigerman established the causal relationship. Let’s examine his argument…

What we see here is what is commonly known as “spurious relationship” in sociology. Allow me to elaborate–

Criteria for causal explanations:

To make a valid causal claim, three criteria must be satisfied:

1. empirical association: In order to identify a causal effect, we must first observe that the explanatory and outcome variables are associated with one another.

Tigerman claimed that the explanatory variable “change in family/divorce law” affects the outcome variable “Taiwan’s divorce rate.” It is probably true that the divorce rate in Taiwan did rises after amendments were made to the relevant laws. So he is probably correct in making the association.

2. appropriate temporal ordering: In order to say that the explanatory variable causes change in the dependent variable, it must be true that the explanatory variable precedes the outcome.

Tigerman did not give me enough information to determine whether it was true in this case or not. So, no comment.

3. nonspuriousness: In order to make the claim that one thing causes another, we must determine that the relationship is not spurious - that is, that there is no third variable that accounts for the observed association.

I have already identified a 3rd variable - that is, the effect of increasing exposure to western culture on Taiwanese marriage, which tigerman had failed to take into account when he made the statement. Hence, his argument that the rise in Taiwanese divorce rate is solely due to the change in family/divorce laws does not stand valid.

27

[quote=“Juba”]
Antilogic, why do you keep presenting statistics that don’t include Taiwan, when the discussion is about Taiwan? [/quote]

Take heed Chinese Family “Values”, What kind of “family values” do/will YOU emulate? Similar to what you see here (“Chinese” values)

Where is the discussion on Taiwan? I must have missed it.

28

[quote=“antilogic”]I asked how tigerman established the causal relationship. Let’s examine his argument…

What we see here is what is commonly known as “spurious relationship” in sociology. Allow me to elaborate–

Criteria for causal explanations:

To make a valid causal claim, three criteria must be satisfied:

1. empirical association: In order to identify a causal effect, we must first observe that the explanatory and outcome variables are associated with one another.

Tigerman claimed that the explanatory variable “change in family/divorce law” affects the outcome variable “Taiwan’s divorce rate.” It is probably true that the divorce rate in Taiwan did rises after amendments were made to the relevant laws. So he is probably correct in making the association.[/quote]

Yes, I probably am correct.

[quote=“antilogic”]2. appropriate temporal ordering: In order to say that the explanatory variable causes change in the dependent variable, it must be true that the explanatory variable precedes the outcome.

Tigerman did not give me enough information to determine whether it was true in this case or not. So, no comment.[/quote]

Huh? Just go look at the divorce rate in Taiwan ten years ago and compare the same with the divorce rate today, which has increased tremendously after intensive lobbying to change the family and divorce laws in Taiwan. :unamused:

[quote=“antilogic”]3. nonspuriousness: In order to make the claim that one thing causes another, we must determine that the relationship is not spurious - that is, that there is no third variable that accounts for the observed association.

I have already identified a 3rd variable - that is, the effect of increasing exposure to western culture on Taiwanese marriage, which tigerman had failed to take into account when he made the statement.[/quote]

:shock: Uh, I already noted my disagreement with your 3rd variable, and gave reasons as to why I believe you are wrong, and identified my 3rd variable (modernization) as more likely an factor than westernization.

I also noted the situation in Ireland (a western nation), where divorce only recently became legal, and indicated that the divorce rate there increased dramatically after divorce became legal. If you cannot see a causal relationship with respect to divorce being obtainable and divorce rates, then I think you cannot be reasoned with.

Uh, I NEVER stated that the change in the divorce laws was the SOLE reason for the increase in Taiwanese divorces. You are either unable to understand what I have written, or are simply intellectually dishonest.

Which are you?

29

And now for the biggest assumption of the lot:

[quote=“antilogic”]The reason that Asian countries enjoy such low divorce rate is mainly because majority of married Asian couples are satisfied with their marriages. (as statistics “ie. family life satisfaction rate” strongly suggested).


% of Married Couples Satisfied with Family Life
(Source: UCLA Asia Institute)

Bangladesh------- 72
China------------- 82
India-------------- 73
Indonesia-------- 73
Japan------------- 86
Pakistan---------- 60
Philippines------- 85
South Korea------ 87
Vietnam----------- 87

[/quote]

Wrong.

The clearest trashing of your ASSUMPTION that “family life satisfaction” is an indicator of a happy marrage is the responses to the question: “Are your mother and father very close?” In the US, 50% of people replied “Yes”. In Japan, only 29%. Married couples may be satisfied with family life, but it appears the reason for such satisfaction CANNOT be each other. So, they are not particularly happy with their marriage when seen in terms of the individuals.

Challenge met on behalf of Littleiron. Littleiron’s point is backed by the statistics better than yours.

The World Value Survey has some interesting data to show that what makes a happy family life differs between countries. Poor countries, for example, regard a satisfactory income as important for a satisfying family life; rich countries do not emphasise this.

One final point, you were disingenuous by using only married couples family satisfaction rates. If you widen the question to the whole population, then, according to the World Values Survey only 12% of Japanese are satisfied - way below the US, for example.

An interpretation from one analyst: “From the 1990-1993 world
values survey,it was reported that only 12% of Japanese people are
satisfied with their home life. This can be understood on the basis
of the degree in which the family imposes upon the individual in
Japan.”

Antilogic, you should not be allowed to use statistics - you keep cutting yourself on them.

30

All of your arguments so far are solely based on personal accounts and assumptions. And that is no way to make a valid causal claim. (See my previous post)

All your posts have served to show is how prejudicial you are. Insofar as the opinions are unequivocally expressed, little evidence (other than personal accounts) and statistics are presented to back them up. And yes, overgeneralizing is your biggest problem, I’m telling ya as a local who was born and raised here.

Cases in point:

The reason your statistics show glowing family satisfaction rates is because very rarely would an Asian admit their home life sucks.

Unhappy marriages? I have run into a few, where the mother in law made the daugher in law very unhappy with the state of things. Little wonder quite a few women opt out.

I’m basing my comments on my own years of experience living in Taiwan, and years of dealing with Asian families in the US.

From my experience (which is no scientific survey), affairs occur at a much higher rate in Taiwan than in the US (I’ve never lived in Europe so can’t comment about there).

Obviously I’m overgeneralizing.

C’mon. Saying “I know this as a fact”… “I know that as a fact” is no way to make a good argument…

This is the point I was trying to make.

Later…

31

I’m like being bombarded with retorts and replies here and there. :smiley: :smiley: It’s like having 100 guys ganging up on you :stuck_out_tongue:

It’s kinda difficult for me to reply any post thorougly and in real-time…

sorry…

PS: take a deep breath go back to work now… later.

32

I think the He man refuted your argument there, followed by Tigerman. I also can tell you of the 4 Swedish couples that I lived with/studied with all of them were unmarried, only one had plans to marry, and 3 all had siblings who had children out of wedlock… but were in long term committed relationships. Is this bad? Why should “marriage” connote a stable relationship.

I think that there is a cartoon in today

33

Figures from the East west centre on the percentage of husbands and wives happy with their marriages, from Japan, US, and South Korea:

Husbands;Wives

Japan: Husbands 44%; wives43%
South Korea: Husbands 69%; wives58%
US: Husbands 86%; wives 86%

I have not seen what I regard as “good quality” data on Taiwan. But what I have seen has shown the satisfaction rating RISING as the DIVORCE RATE has risen. Again, this seems logical. You are more likely to be happy with your current marriage if you have had the chance to get out of a bad one and find someone else.

Surely this logic is obvious?

34

[quote=“Flipper”]
people seem to be taking a bad slice of chinese culture, overgeneralizing it, and then comparing it to some idealized concept of western culture that doesn’t really exist anymore.[/quote]

Flipper hit the nail right on the head… That is the point I was trying to make as well.

35

[quote=“antilogic”][quote=“Flipper”]
people seem to be taking a bad slice of chinese culture, overgeneralizing it, and then comparing it to some idealized concept of western culture that doesn’t really exist anymore.[/quote]

Flipper hit the nail right on the head… That is the point I was trying to make as well.[/quote]

I think flipper raised a very important note of caution, but I do not necessarily think he “hit the nail on the head”.

And it does not appear, from your own posts, that you are trying to make the same point that flipper was warning us to be cautious about.

36

Yes, it’s bad. That is a clear sign of irresponsbility (esp. when kids are involved), Sharky. What would happen to the children if the couples decide to break up? Who’s gonna pay the alimony?

By not committing themselves to marriage, they are basically saying that they reserve the right to avoid any responsbility associated with marriage and the right to walk out on their “families.” At least that’s the way I interpret it.

I’m not so sure. Why do you think that ‘runaway children’ is a problem in many developed countries? You rarely hear kids talking about their “step mom,” “step dad” here, don’t you??? Again, to me, children should come first. I know… it’s just personal opinion.

37

[quote=“antilogic”][quote=“Flipper”]
people seem to be taking a bad slice of chinese culture, overgeneralizing it, and then comparing it to some idealized concept of western culture that doesn’t really exist anymore.[/quote]

Flipper hit the nail right on the head… That is the point I was trying to make as well.[/quote]

Well, yeah… but, listen - what we are doing is talking about an abstract thing like “family values.” It really doesn’t exist at all - each family makes up its own values. If we were to be completely pedantic, we would not have grounds for any discussion. So, we have to generalise. And with these abstract generalised concepts, we can theorise and do a bit of “compare and contrast.”

I think, for example, there is ample logical argument and statistics to back up some of the generalisations:

  1. Family values are to a degree caused by the level of economic development
  2. As wealth increases, the importance of the individual rises relative to the family (as they are better able to support themselves alone)
  3. Thus “chinese values” tend to be “corrupted” or “Westernised” over time as incomes rise
  4. Family structures, legal systems do change more slowly, so there is a kind of illusion in some places like Taiwan of a modern society with pre-modern family structures

For myself, therefore, I would always promote the kind of values that I grew up with - “Western ones” They will be more appropriate for the wealthier world my kids will inhabit. They are more appropriate because the force of economic development naturally increases individual power within the family. I would not want to impose what we are caricaturing as “Chinese values” because they seem anacronistic now and will be increasingly so in the future, EVEN WITHIN CHINESE COMMUNITIES.

38

Yes, it’s bad. That is a clear sign of irresponsbility (esp. when kids are involved), Sharky. What would happen to the children if the couples decide to break up? Who’s gonna pay the alimony?

By not committing themselves to marriage, they are basically saying that they reserve the right to avoid any responsbility associated with marriage and the right to walk out on their “families.” At least that’s the way I interpret it.[/quote]

Then how do you interpret the state of Taiwan law regarding divorce and support for children after a divorce? How do you deal with the lack of responsibility illustrated by Taiwanese parents regarding children in breakups? Your above statements make very large assumptions… i.e., that parents must be married in order for them to care for their children! Please, even married parents are sometimes deficient in this regard.

I’m not so sure. Why do you think that ‘runaway children’ is a problem in many developed countries? You rarely hear kids talking about their “step mom,” “step dad” here, don’t you??? Again, to me, children should come first. I know… it’s just personal opinion.[/quote]

And you rarely hear kids in the West talking about their father’s “other” family or mistress.

I agree that children should come first. But you apparently fail to recognize that putting children first may very well mean permitting a mother/wife to abandon ship in a sinking marriage.

39

imyourbiggestfan:

[quote]
Japan: Husbands 44%; wives43%
South Korea: Husbands 69%; wives58%
US: Husbands 86%; wives 86%
But what I have seen has shown the satisfaction rating RISING as the DIVORCE RATE has risen.
Surely this logic is obvious?[/quote]

You’re jumping to conclusion too quickly. I think we need to know the population sizes and sample sizes in order to make any sense out of the figures, dont you think?

Let me give you a quick example. A country with one married couple who happen to be satified with their marriage would come out with 100% satisfication rate… So I’m afraid the figure does not really tell us anything, don’t you think?

40

Gotta be kidding - LAtin America?

You miss the point about the suppression of the individual’s rights to the rights of the family and its affects on the children. This is a potential reason why widening the “family life satisfaction” survey from married couples to all people results in a drastic fall in satisfaction levels in Japan. So, there is no guarantee that the Eastern family values do anything to make sure “kids come first.” If anything, the statistics imply the opposite.

Not surprising: the main reason for people to have kids is summed up by the Chinese phrase: “Raise children to look after you in your old age.” Its about obligations and duties OF THE KIDS TO THE PARENTS. Rising incomes allows children over time to escape these obligations and this is why the extended family disintegrates. ITS A REVOLUTION OF YOUNG AGAINST OLD.