Chinese Forum Mod

Sorry. I don’t normally complain. However, I call foul at the modding in Learning Chinese. I took exception to the use of “professional” by both Ironlady and Buttercup in their very obviously subjective, personal opinions of Rosetta Stone software (which I found patronizing to those who may actually like the program). These are serious posts, meant to be serious contributions to the discourse. Ironlady temped my posts, along with some temp-able banter brought on by BC, purely because she disagreed with them. I can see no rules broken on my part and ask that those posts be returned to permament record. I am referring to three posts in particular.

Hi Toasty,

I split the posts and put all the scrappy stuff in temp (not Ironlady). Sorry if any babies got thrown out with the bathwater. You and Buttercup are welcome to repost any salient info, but I’m trying to keep the topic (and the LC forum) free of these three and four page contretemps which don’t add much to discussion.

Cheers,
Taffy

Yoooooou started it! :raspberry:

I make language learning software. Is it outwith the bounds of possibility that I have a ‘professional’ opinion on other publishers’ language learning software? I am paid for my ability to make judgements these things.

Um, yes. I have a Ph.D in Foreign Language Education (teaching Chinese), I’ve been involved in the field for a good many years, and I develop materials for Chinese learners. I’ve tried and/or used most of the materials out there, and yes, I have opinions on them. Sorry I offended your sensibilities, I’m sure.

I don’t think I have ever deleted anyone’s opinion from the LC forum, whether congruent with mine or not. But just because I’m a mod doesn’t mean I should not have the freedom to engage in discussion about a topic. After all, I haven’t called Mr. Toasty a touchy babyish whinger yet, now, have I? So no personal attacks, either.

Show me where I’ve “modded” inappropriately. Specifically. Or cease this sort of pointless post.

Ah, I see now where you’re probably coming from. It wasn’t me who temped those posts – there are two other mods on LC, you know. Maybe you should ask around and figure out which of them did the temping (Taffy). I haven’t temped anyone’s posts in quite awhile, as it happens, so I can say with great certainty I didn’t temp yours. (Although I definitely agree with Taffy on the meta-discussion on “whether it’s okay to comment” being temped. It doesn’t add to, well, the discussion.)

Toasty, thanks very much for your feedback. :slight_smile: Please note that we tend to keep the Learning Chinese forum pretty clean of scrappy stuff, and discussions of the messenger instead of the message. In this case, if a post is about the software, it stays, whether it’s a biased personal opinion or not, and whether we mods agree with it or not. If it’s harshly critical (as [url=http://tw.forumosa.com/t/off-topic-spat-from-chinese-learning-software/56812/1 was) of another poster or the way they expressed their opinion and especially if it turns into a spat which doesn’t contribute productively to the purpose of the forum, which is facilitating the learning of Chinese, a mod may temp it (whether they agree with it or not). I agree with Taffy’s modding in this case. (You shouldn’t assume that a particular mod was the one who temped that, anyway.)

Dear all,

I’m not going to push this issue any further than this post. I’ll respect the decisions made, even though I disagree with them and I feel they set a bad precedent.

My posts were criticisms, nothing more. I further don’t agree they were harsh (although the same could not be said of people accusing me of “sexism and sexual bullying,” simply because they don’t get sarcasm). The criticisms were solely about what was written and the tone in which it was written. And they were furthermore quite mild and humorous in their delivery. It’s reaching—really reaching-- to suggest they broke any rules.

I dislike condescending and patronizing attitudes. Run away egoism bugs me. It also irks me when people try to label their random opinions as “professional” so as to elevate their biased personal preferences above those of others. “My opinions are more important than those of other posters because they’re professional.” Riiiiight…

Professional indeed. What research procedures did the posters who labelled their opinions as such follow? None? What research did they cite? None? What exactly were their “professional” observations? Well, the program “annoys” them and the “advertising” bothers them. Yes, sir. Only the most professional of observations.

Yes, I dislike it when people treat their biased likes and dislikes as if they were medical procedures. I said so. I think the wrong call was made in modding the thread. That is all.

Toasty, both ironlady and myself have posted some of our credentials. ironlady has a PhD and has worked in language teaching and materials for decades. I have a masters in linguistics, have learned half a dozen modern languages and four ancient languages. I work for an ELT publisher, commissioning and developing language learning and testing materials, including software with similar markets to this. Although I don’t see why I have to post a CV for your approval, I can give a ‘professional opinion’ on this topic. On very very few other topics, but this one, yes. I have no ‘ego’ or arrogance about this - it’s just my job. Rent money.

I was not denigrating anybody’s choices, or putting anyone down. I sincerely wish Mother Teresa well in his language learning - I know he has a Taiwanese family, and a career in Taiwan.

I reiterate: RS is a product designed to make large amounts of cash by playing on people’s misconceptions of how languages are learned. They may be very effective for certain types of learner from beginner to lower intermediate level, but as soon as certain types of linguistic complexity surface, the method falls short. It’s also very expensive, which is related to the cost of the artwork sourcing and the marketing, not to the ‘result’.

I’m NOT saying that nobody will ever learn anything from RS, or that anyone who bought it is a chump, just that if you are considering buying the software, think about it carefully and don’t just look at the pretty pictures in the beginners’ lessons.

Does that seem unreasonable to anyone?

[quote=“Toasty”]
My posts were criticisms, nothing more. I further don’t agree they were harsh (although the same could not be said of people accusing me of “sexism and sexual bullying,” simply because they don’t get sarcasm). The criticisms were solely about what was written and the tone in which it was written. And they were furthermore quite mild and humorous in their delivery. It’s reaching—really reaching-- to suggest they broke any rules.[/quote]

From the perspectives of the mods in LC, it doesn’t matter whether your personal comments (comments aimed at an individual poster, not discussing the topic at hand) were mild or humorous – they were not furthering the topic of the thread. It’s not about whether they were overly harsh or whatever.

From a personal perspective, if you truly believe that the only comment I’ve made about RS concerns its advertising, you haven’t read the thread carefully. And the point of the advertising comment was that the ads overstate the functionality of the program in furthering language acquisition, not simply that they are ubiquitous and irritating.

Now, however, might be a good time to admit that you jumped to a conclusion about “my” moderating. Whether or not you like my participation in the discussion or my professional opinions, I have never put the kabosh on any of your opinions, professional or otherwise – even though you don’t footnote them with the research backing up your conclusions. :wink:

What if Toasty also got a Phd?
Isn’t it a bit pretentious to use “I got Phd” as argument? :popcorn:

[quote=“engerim”]What if Toasty also got a Phd?
Isn’t it a bit pretentious to use “I got Phd” as argument? :popcorn:[/quote]

Yeah, I get roasted on this Forum for seeming to care about education/alma maters, but I don’t put my qualifications/degrees on my business card. That’s too German and European in its pretentiousness :laughing: :laughing:

I find the flaunting of qualifications by female forumosans highly distasteful. It’s undermining my fragile self-esteem and confidence (and as a loooser ESL coolie in Taiwan I didn’t have much to begin with).
It’s a pity that Buttercup and Ironlady’s hard edges weren’t softened by their years in the Orient, and a shame that alongside acquisition of the language, they didn’t assimilate their Asian counterparts subservience to male superiors. Then we might today have two cute posters by the name of ButterBlossom and LotusLady

If you work for one publisher you might have a non objective judgment on other publishers.
I read Rosetta Stone is for free for people who are in the Peace Corps and that it has won numerous prices as educational software (even from educational organizations). That ain’t too bad of a record I think. I’m not writing any educational software and I’m not paid for my ability to make judgements on these things. I’m not afiliated with Rosetta Stone.

Well, I can give away any book or software package I own (or any one that I produce, if I’m a company producing them), but that doesn’t affect whether or not the book or software is good for language learning. It just makes me generous.

As for the Ph.D argument – it’s stupid to argue that your opinion on making pizza is more valid than someone else’s if your doctorate is in veterinary science, but it seems logical that if you spent years studying vet science to earn a doctorate, you might be permitted to put forth opinions about illnesses in cows and mention that you had done that degree when people challenge you about your recommendations for curing their bovine herd.

Unlike the government of Taiwan, I do not believe that having a doctorate makes you automatically qualified in every field (no work experience needed for a work visa if you have a Ph.D), nor do I go around talking about it constantly (have you followed this discussion or are you just jumping in at the last minute?) But just as someone who is a lawyer would appropriately point that out if someone asked “How do you know that you have to file that form with the Court?”, there’s nothing wrong with pointing out your experience or education in a specific area during a discussion.

[quote=“engerim”]What if Toasty also got a Phd?
Isn’t it a bit pretentious to use “I got Phd” as argument? :popcorn:[/quote]

The topic of discussion was explicitly “professionalism” and its importance (or lack of it.)

If you have veterinary Ph.D. what does it have to do with language learning. Could you be more specific to us what kind of Ph.D you have so we can weight if it really matters as argument? Even the pizza maker has the right to vote or have an opinion, no? As already mentioned I find the use of grades as arguments in discussions highly counterproductive to the discussion itself. Besides different Ph.D might have different opinions or got their Ph.D in some pseudo establishment.
Just like there is good doctors vs. bad doctors and good pizza makers vs. Dominos. What exactly is your Ph.D?

In this particular discussion I think its wrong because it looks pretentious if not patronizing.
To me the only question is would you (as in you = the mods of that forum) automatically Temp posts concerning Rosetta Stone cause you (Ph.D or not) find its not a good software (even if others, even accredited institutions,think it is - if that matters)? As its written by Toasty this seems to be the case. I think you should just review together with the mod team of that forum if you can restore those posts (as it seems you personally didn’t temp any) to give a good feedback to Toasty’s request:

If you have veterinary Ph.D. what does it have to do with language learning. Could you be more specific to us what kind of Ph.D you have so we can weight if it really matters as argument? Even the pizza maker has the right to vote or have an opinion, no? As already mentioned I find the use of grades as arguments in discussions highly counterproductive to the discussion itself. Besides different Ph.D might have different opinions or got their Ph.D in some pseudo establishment.
Just like there is good doctors vs. bad doctors and good pizza makers vs. Dominos. What exactly is your Ph.D?[/quote]

Teaching Chinese as a second/foreign language. University of Texas at Austin. MA in Chinese Linguistics. BS in Chinese and BS in Linguistics. Second MA in Interpretation and Translation. So yes, I think that does give me some insight into foreign language learning software and the methodologies underlying it. Everyone is entitled to have an opinion – which I have upheld in the forum – but Toasty “called” me on why I should say what I was saying.

In this particular discussion I think its wrong because it looks pretentious if not patronizing.
To me the only question is would you (as in you = the mods of that forum) automatically Temp posts concerning Rosetta Stone cause you (Ph.D or not) find its not a good software (even if others, even accredited institutions,think it is - if that matters)? As its written by Toasty this seems to be the case. I think you should just review together with the mod team of that forum if you can restore those posts (as it seems you personally didn’t temp any) to give a good feedback to Toasty’s request:

The credentials question is totally separate from the modding question.
The only Toasty posts that were temped off the thread being discussed were posts that talked about the people in the discussion, not posts that discussed the topic being talked about. [color=#FF0000]There is a rule on Forumosa, “discuss the message, not the messenger”[/color]. Also, in LC, the mod team (there are three of us) keep threads focused on the topic so that the forum serves as a useful reference for those searching Chinese-related topics in the future. No one temped posts because they said one thing or another about RS. Toasty or anyone else is welcome to express any opinion he likes about RS, and it will stay – as long as it is an opinion about RS, not an opinion about others having opinions about RS. Toasty’s (or anyone else’s) opinions about how people express their opinions about RS are “not of general interest” (as the father in “Cheaper by the Dozen” would say) and will be temped.

I think we have quite a few people now weighing in on a thread they haven’t even read in its entirety. Anyway, the mods are not under any obligation to make lengthy explanations about why something was done or not done. All of the LC mods are in agreement that the posts that were removed (including one of mine) did not belong in the thread permanently, and therefore were appropriately put into temp.

On the unrelated matter of credentials, when someone says “Where do you get off giving an opinion about how Language Learning Product XYZ works?” it’s not inappropriate for me to cite my academic preparation in the field, just as a lawyer would cite his status as a lawyer to back up his statements about legal matters. It doesn’t mean others can’t comment, but it also doesn’t mean that the lawyer is constrained from stating his qualification to be talking about the topic when it is questioned.

Fine with me then. :bow:

[quote=“almas john”]I find the flaunting of qualifications by female forumosans highly distasteful. It’s undermining my fragile self-esteem and confidence (and as a loooser ESL coolie in Taiwan I didn’t have much to begin with).
It’s a pity that Buttercup and Ironlady’s hard edges weren’t softened by their years in the Orient, and a shame that alongside acquisition of the language, they didn’t assimilate their Asian counterparts subservience to male superiors. Then we might today have two cute posters by the name of ButterBlossom and LotusLady[/quote]

:bow: Hehe, hardened, more like.

engerim, giving away edu materials is the oldest marketing trick in the book, no pun intended. Why would they do that, would you imagine? Pearson, and many of the other top-selling ed publishers give away more gratis than smaller publisher even sell.

For the record, neither ironlady nor myself have dismissed anyone else’s opinion on this not exactly weighty topic. I was attempting to use my knowledge (yes, acquired through education and professional experience - I’m paid to make judgements about educational software, so that means I dohave a commercial, or professional opinion. You may not agree with that, or thing it’s worth anything, but, hell, the people who pay me do.

What a load of blah. You boys need to take up a sport, or something.

OUCH! Toasty got REAMED! But GOOD! :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Face it laddie. You don’t like the delivery, but the facts therein are sound PROFESSIONAL judgments. Hate the player, not the game – except, that’s not allowed on the Flob.
The two people you are railing against are perhaps the MOST knowlegable on the subject that we have here on the Flob – they make their livings from it, at FAR higher echelons than you do or that you’re even privy to. You’re simply making yourself look silly, especially since neither one of them have said “Don’t buy this, buy THAT! THAT is the heavy heavy monster sound! ONE STEP BEYOND!”
But please continue. Spats are cool.