Chinese literature--bah!

Okay, China is this huge country with upteen thousands of years of history. In theory, its literature should be as rich and abundant as all of Europe’s put together.

But no. China does have a few “great” works–by which I mean, worthy to sit next to Homer or at least Henry James, or take up space on Harvard’s “five-foot shelf of books” / Mortimer J. Adler’s list of a hundred greatest hits. However, the volume and quality of this literature is more comparable to that of Spanish or Scandanavian literature, and not even close to that of Greece (though that is a bit much to expect of any nation).

If we consider works of lesser “weight,” such as historical writing and minor religious literature, then the same pattern seems to hold true.

So, why does China underperform? Or is this way of thinking all wrong?

[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]Okay, China is this huge country with upteen thousands of years of history. In theory, its literature should be as rich and abundant as all of Europe’s put together.

But no. China does have a few “great” works–by which I mean, worthy to sit next to Homer or at least Henry James, or take up space on Harvard’s “five-foot shelf of books” / Mortimer J. Adler’s list of a hundred greatest hits. However, the volume and quality of this literature is more comparable to that of Spanish or Scandanavian literature, and not even close to that of Greece (though that is a bit much to expect of any nation).

If we consider works of lesser “weight,” such as historical writing and minor religious literature, then the same pattern seems to hold true.

So, why does China underperform? Or is this way of thinking all wrong?[/quote]

You may think it’s book burning or sticking to the Four Books and Five Classics, but no, there is plenty of good stuff. Maybe you haven’t found it. Maybe you just don’t like it. There is a huge amount of poetry. There is also a lot of regional literature, though in the past that has been more of an oral tradition.

Like what? What literature am I overlooking?

I think illiteracy, poverty, and despotism are bigger hurdles than book-burning.

[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]Like what? What literature am I overlooking?
[/quote]

I don’t know what you are looking at so how do I know what you are overlooking? Why don’t you head to the library?

I basically agree with the original poster. I think the quality of a nation’s literature cannot be guessed from the country’s population or years of history. There are lots of examples of small population centers that produce wonderful literature, and any country’s literary output varies with time. 19th century Russian literature is considered better than its 20th century literature, for example.
One reason China’s literary output is smaller than you might expect from its population is because most Chinese people throughout history have been illiterate peasants. The percentage of the Chinese population actually capable of writing a book has always been low.

That’s been historically true of every society on earth, though - up until the 20th century the vast majority of people in every nation were illiterate peasants. It’s always been a small community of elites who have written all the literature. Russia was very fortunate to have developed a very strong literary class in the 19th century. I think one reason why China never developed that literary aristocracy is that all of the intellectuals were siphoned into the massive bureaucracy - the mandarin class.

I think you’re mistaken if you wish to judge Chinese literature by it’s popularity or accessibility today. Goethe’s critically regarded Faust is practically unreadable today, which it’s bombastic rhetoric and dull formality, but it was highly revered for many generations. If we hadn’t been raised from birth to revere Shakespeare, and Greek drama, we would likely approach both with the skepticism that you now bring to Chinese literature. Shakespeare? Too many cliches. And no one talks like that anyway. The Greeks? Too formal. Not very realistic except the later comedies.

I think we can safely admit the genius of Chinese political writers. From legalism to humanism, and all the other 98 schools of thought, all the ways a people can be ruled were studied and expounded with great insight into human nature and often in a crisp, moving style.

And what about their ethics? From Confucius to Mencius to Lao Zi to Zhuang Zi to a host of other lesser lights, we have a body of work unmatched in its devotion to how to lead a good life and cultivate oneself. The best the Greeks came up with was the very banal Ethics by Aristotle.

Poetry? Can only read it in translation and find much of it incomprehensible or inaccessible but that is true of most poetry written by an aristocratic elite. You need to be trained to appreciate this stuff, and that’s not something most of us all willing to go through.

Consider the most popular of all Chinese arts: opera. No westerner can even remotely appreciate this without a great deal of exposure, and probably study. Are we then to conclude that it is worthless, or mediocre at best?

I’d say that the genius of the Chinese is in their legends, fables, historical parables, political apothegms, moral sayings, popular novels and the like. If you consider all these the average Chinese is heir to an immensely rich literary heritage.

Hmm. I’m not sure how to decide “greatness” objectively, except through an appeal to expert opinion of some sort. I mean, if we’re not going to accept Goethe and Shakespeare, then all bets are off. I admit that I’m not too happy with this approach, since few people can really be an “expert” about another language / culture group. (Pity the poor Nobel Prize literature judges who have to–in theory, anyway–evaluate everything in every language.)

In the case of philosophy, I look at what seems to have made an impression on philosophers today. What are they reading over there in the university departments? Aristotle for sure (his virtue-based ethics have actually had quite a revival lately), but as far as Chinese philosophy goes, most of it seems to be studied as a sort of armchair field anthropology (“China and Africa have philosophers too”) rather than as living influences. China’s tradition of logic was more of a rumor than anything (some fragment about a white horse not being a horse, sounds like something a logician would come up with!) and the rest looks like a succession of grand metaphysical systems without much in the way of criticism. This isn’t just ethnocentricism–Buddhism gets a VERY good hearing in the West, but mostly not in its Chinese form.

I assume that a short-list of Chinese “greats” would include a volume of Tang poetry. Hmmm, it’s interesting that so many of China’s cultural highlights would be the result of contact with non-Chinese cultures. (Buddhism too.) I don’t think we could say the same of Indian culture, they didn’t need a kick-start.

Opera. God. I personally hate Chinese vocal music. But obviously we can’t evaluate it according to this. What to do? Hmmm, if we are going to allow folksy art into the “great” category, then what about Western comic books? On one hand we don’t want to be too close-minded, on the other hand we don’t want to say that eight-year-old illiterates can be intellectuals.

I guess what we’d need to do is match cultural equivalents according to merit or “weight”. For example, the Iliad and Odyssey are more or less the same level as the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, and the Bible is like Confucian or Buddhist scriptures. That sort of thing. My impression is that this would leave Chinese culture competing with national linguistic cultures like Hebrew or Spanish, rather than continental ones like Europe or India.

I actually liked Faust I. It’s got the devil in it, after all! Only a Jungian could love Faust II, though, it’s so confused and bizarre. Young Werther made quite an impression in its day, but modern readers are more likely to laugh at the poor sap and the hack of a writer who created him.

With Shakespeare, you’re dealing with two audiences. One audience has to decide whether to go to the Globe or to the bear-baiting session. So Shakespeare has to make it a close call. That’s why so many plays read like a “Three’s Company” plot. (Mistaken assumption leads to parade of double-entendres, etc.) But he also has an intellectual audience, which is where all that Hermetic philosophy comes in handy. And everything in that kick-ass iambic pentameter! Which is the sort of thing that I’d miss if I were reading Chinese.

It’s awfully difficult to compare two national literatures. We need to be educated to appreciate literature, and it’s unlikely that many people will be perfectly bilingual, able to perfectly appreciate the literatures of two cultures. That said, it does seem that China does not have as much literature as you might expect. It’s population is ten times that of Japan, but I can’t see that there is ten times as much of about equivalent quality.
I think it must be the peasant thing. True, all countries were at one time populated primarily by illiterate peasants, but China has not yet left this stage (70% rural; and believe me, the rural schools in China aren’t too good), whereas the other countries whose national literatures we would be most familiar with have had substantial urban and/or educated populations for centuries (or in the case of Japan, only one century).

[quote]I assume that a short-list of Chinese “greats” would include a volume of Tang poetry. Hmmm, it’s interesting that so many of China’s cultural highlights would be the result of contact with non-Chinese cultures. (Buddhism too.) I don’t think we could say the same of Indian culture, they didn’t need a kick-start.
[/quote]

Can you back up this claim about Indian culture? Given what I know about the literature and arts of other cultures I’d say this is almost certainly untrue. And in any case, why knock the Chinese for creating great work under the influence of others. What matters in art is the final product not how much bastardization of other forms went into it. The only artist I know who eschews influence is ALW of Cats fame, who is said not to allow any other music to be played around him but his own. Oh and it shows, it shows!

I said chinese opera was popular with the folk not that it’s a folk art. It is far to sophisticated to be considered a folk art.

In a nutshell the problem with your approach is that you think the opinion of experts matters for all time. Are you aware of the ups ands downs of Shakespeare’s reputation over the centuries? Are you aware that though we today consider Plato the greater philospsher, Aristotle was number one for a far greater period of time.

And why is that? Wouldn’t have anything to do with the paucity of Chinese scholars as opposed to Greek would it? Wouldn’t have anything to do with inertia in academia or the fact that traditions are hard to break?

The notion that all works of art and literature have received their fair due in today’s world is a ludicrous thought. Chinese literature has influenced the narratives of opera, painting, dance and these days TV. If it hasn’t influenced the entire world yet (or America which is what I think you’re really getting at :wink: ) it’s time may yet come. In the future Screaming Jesus’s may wonder how we could have been so blind to the treasures all around us.

China has amazing literature, sadly the “cultural” Revolution helped to erase much of its history and literature. Modern Chinese literature is currently in a revival process in China. I have read a couple of good works recently from “undergound” presses, but not much has been translated into English. Anyway, back to the subject, I feel that China has as rich of a literary history as Greece. Have you read 西遊記 (The Journey to the West)? It is comparable to the Odyssey. How about 紅樓夢 (The Dreams of the Red Chamber)? Lao Dze’s Dao De Jing is a great work of philosophy. I personally love Chinese novels about wandering adventurers such as 仙劍奇俠傳. My step-mother introduced me to the soley Chinese genre of “Kungfu novels”. Most are quite cheesy, but still enjoyable.

I think that the main difficulty with Chinese literature for most Westerners is the limited access of good English translations (how many English speakers would read the Odyssey if it was not translated into English?).

Other classics:

  1. Shiji
  2. Zhuangzi
  3. Mudanting
  4. Jinpingmei
  5. Fusheng liuji
  6. Sanguo Yanyi
  7. Tu Fu
  8. Li Bai
  9. Li Qingzhao
  10. Bai juyi
  11. Chuanqi
  12. Cao Zhi
  13. Su Shi
  14. Shijing
  15. Daodejing
  16. Zuozhuan
  17. Liaozhai
  18. Shuihu Zhuan

On Chinese logic–you need to read A.C. Graham’s exegesis of the later Mohists before you pass judgement.